Please let Windows 7 not be swiss cheese!

[troyatlarge]

Seems at the computer repair shop I am getting FLOODED with infected Windows boxes. It has become so bad that I'm getting in tons of hours and thus little to no time to play around with Fedora : (

The only real relief is when someone has simply had enough and switches over to Linux, which loads far faster and finds, most of the time, most all the drivers without any problem (can do maybe 3 Linux installs in the time of one Windows install if you have to driver hunt - up that to 4 or 5 Linux installs if you have to deal with dell in finding the drivers!!!)

The good news is, yesterday alone I converted two more boxes to Linux - Puppy on an old box with Windows 98 on it (now its pretty darn snappy) and PCLinuxOS on a newer dell - have turned 7 folks onto Linux now - its easy when your a tech dealing with people pulling their hair over Windows.

All the same, was sad to hear of a new university policy for people taking on-line classes: they now refuse to use Foxfire as your browser - if you want the on-line classes, you are FORCED to pay Bill Gates money (most classes now REQUIRE the use of Microsoft Office 2007, thus you get to buy Windows for you $100 + and Office for $400 or so. Of course if you want the Windows 7 security features of importance, you will have to upgrade (for $'s) to one of the higher versions.

With any luck, Windows 7 will not have the problems with this never ending stream of adware, trojans, etc. that the rest of the Windows boxes suffer from - to give an idea of what I mean, we did a new install. Once installed we hooked on-line and went straight to Windows updates. When it had updated and rebooted and got more updates (about 7 times) and finally got completely updated, we took it off line and ran MalwareBytes on it to find no less than 48 infections on it - which is why one ALWAY installs anti-malware on Windows before even THINKING about going on-line.

Anyway, I do wish the best to the users who buy into the new software - after all, for that sort of money, you really shouldn't need to be forking out the buck to come see the likes of me!

[tho.mei]

Hallo troyatlarge

Vizta was to bad by security. But all the services how are controlled unsafe parts of the system consumed to much cpu-time. Guess the solution out of Redomd? Exactly, deactivate the most of the services by default. Form the view of security, with win7, we are back in 2001! Of course... you can reactivate all the security staff again. And off course, you will get a fast system, like Vizta again!
When will MS remove the huge mistakes in the architecture of win? And belief me, the kernel is not the problem!

I've to mention... every swiss cheese has less holes as win7! And swiss cheese is quality and tastes nice... Win7 hat a bad taste and is only vizta without the security staff.

[forkbomb]

:rolleyes:

No matter how many releases Microsoft makes, they never can get by the fact that most users are idiots.

Face it, guys. Security is 99% about the user.

[steelaworkn]

Most cosumers just want the box to work. Very few are willing to learn what makes the thing actually work. End users they are called. I like W7 but it sure is a resource hog, that's for sure. So, it your experience, what Linux OS does the regualar end user enjoy using the most. So far I have played with Mint, Mandriva, Ubuntu, and Puppy. Fedora is my fun one because I can have the fun of setting everything up. The others seem to be pre packaged and ready for plug and play hardware.

[scottro]

BTW, Troy, I think it was you who tried a bunch of different distros and decided on PCLinuxOS, but am too lazy to seek the thread. I wanted to say that I think it was pretty intelligent to get a WIndows user in on it with you. So often, some distro developer thinks, This must be what Windows users want, and simply aggravate them. You used the empirical method of actually <gasp> asking a Windows user.

The sad thing is that such a seemingly obvious idea was so innovative. :)

[JN4OldSchool]

I need to find my hip waders, the crap is getting high in here!

With any luck, Windows 7 will not have the problems with this never ending stream of adware, trojans, etc. that the rest of the Windows boxes suffer from...

Who do you think you are kidding? You would LOVE it if Windows 7 had these problems. But I think you are full of it. I have not had a single piece of adware installed running vista in almost 2 years. And I did not do a SINGLE THING! Defender was turned on by default after the first year Vista was released. I installed AVG free for virus protection but that has been a waste of time because scan after scan it finds nothing.

Whatever, I wish you luck with all your "converts." Linux is a great OS and I am glad you are showing people the way. But if the idiots you are dealing with cannot even keep Windows clean then I seriously wonder how they will fare with Linux? I just hope you are around to help them out.

[troyatlarge]

Yes, for the non-bit head user who has no interest in becoming a bit head, it would seem they favour PCLinuxOS. The best I can tell it is the way PCLOS words things and places things in their menu, as well as how they often tell you what their going to do before they do it and what they have done once they are finished. It makes for a very easy to use system for people coming out of Windows who are of the type not to be all taken with the terminal and such.

With respect to JN4, I'm sorry to have left you with that impression. I actually do hope they have a better system Windows 7 - I can not tell you how tired I am of cleaning up infections. When we get a computer that is actually busted its rather cool (not that the owner of the system sees it like that).

I disagree with the "stupid moron user" philosophy. A computer should be fully functional for anyone with an I.Q. of 80 - there is not the slightest reason why not. The problem does not reside in the fact that humans differ in their I.Q.'s, but instead resides in the fact that some people, who probably have higher than normal I.Q.'s, seem to think its OK to develop hacks which work to destroy working computers - that is, the problem resides with "pricks", not with "idiots".

With that said, there are some common features I hear with the "idiots" who bring their infested boxes to us. One is the high use of places like facebook, myspace, limewire, etc. Another is that they where so completely saturated with security windows jumping their face constantly that they finally turned auto-updates off. Yet again it is common for these "idiots" to actually be forking money over to places like Norton and Macafee, with all their updates, only to find - opps, they still did not catch the Trojans and malware problems. Had one last week with uptodate Norton which also suffered from having over 200 infections, not one of which Norton even saw. (this month it seems the free version of MalwareBytes is finding and killing most of the problems)

I honestly do hope that Windows7, by default, is set up to protect people from the pricks. I further hope that people start waking up and using OpenOffice, or the likes, instead of tossing hundreds at Bill so they can use a dang word proccessor - that we require paying Bill to go to our universities is, well, national stupidity.

[forkbomb]

I installed AVG free for virus protection but that has been a waste of time because scan after scan it finds nothing.

Seconded. I can't remember the last time I had a confirmed piece of malware or saw and antivirus program find anything that didn't turn out to be a false positive.

I really don't know how people manage to hose their Windows machines so bad with malware. You almost have to try to destroy any operating system - or be so bereft of common sense that you take anybody's advice or click any link. About all I've ever managed to do is hose my registry by messing with it too much (problems that were entirely my problem).

I'm the last person to defend Microsoft (as I've said to some folks in meatspace in the past, I have absolutely zero loyalties when it comes to software) but I always find it astonishing how much FUD the more vocal people on both "sides" (as if it's a war) are capable of producing.


Whatever, I wish you luck with all your "converts." Linux is a great OS and I am glad you are showing people the way.
I'd add that if you "convert" people to Linux, you've probably got at least a little bit of moral obligation to provide at least some support in the event of issues.

Don't just "convert" somebody and then turn on your heels and walk away.

[adrianx]

...
All the same, was sad to hear of a new university policy for people taking on-line classes: they now refuse to use Foxfire as your browser - if you want the on-line classes, you are FORCED to pay Bill Gates money (most classes now REQUIRE the use of Microsoft Office 2007, thus you get to buy Windows for you $100 + and Office for $400 or so. Of course if you want the Windows 7 security features of importance, you will have to upgrade (for $'s) to one of the higher versions.
...
I would have thought that universities (colleges) have enough clever people to help them design "courseware" that works on more than one platform. Maybe they should consider asking teenage geeks, that already know how to code for more than one browser, to assist them, while they plan their next graduation ceremony or initiation ritual (or something). :confused:

[scottro]

I'm also going to respectfully disagree with JN4 here. I suspect that he uses more moderation in his choice of visited sites.

As for Norton and all that, this one made me laugh.

http://media.techeblog.com/images/norton_.jpg

[forkbomb]

I'm also going to respectfully disagree with JN4 here. I suspect that he uses more moderation in his choice of visited sites.

As for Norton and all that, this one made me laugh.

http://media.techeblog.com/images/norton_.jpg
Thanks for that. I've been looking for a higher res of that for awhile. :)

EDIT: there's also a fine line between "moderation" and "gullibility." A lot of computer users cross the line into gullible territory.

[adrianx]

I suspect that he uses more moderation in his choice of visited sites.
Ja, JN, what about the poor biology majors? :p

[Dies]

I need to find my hip waders, the crap is getting high in here!

For real, man. Glad someone said it...


All the same, was sad to hear of a new university policy for people taking on-line classes: they now refuse to use Foxfire as your browser - if you want the on-line classes, you are FORCED to pay Bill Gates money (most classes now REQUIRE the use of Microsoft Office 2007, thus you get to buy Windows for you $100 + and Office for $400 or so. Of course if you want the Windows 7 security features of importance, you will have to upgrade (for $'s) to one of the higher versions.

I don't know where you are getting your info, but if you're a student, Windows 7 AND Office will run you a total of $90 + whatever shipping costs.

Oh yeah, that's just horrible to expect someone paying thousands of dollars for courses to spend $100 on a modern OS and Office Suite. :rolleyes:

http://www.microsoft.com/student/discounts/theultimatesteal-us/default.aspx

[forkbomb]

For real, man. Glad someone said it...



I don't know where you are getting your info, but if you're a student, Windows 7 AND Office will run you a total of $90 + whatever shipping costs.

Oh yeah, that's just horrible to expect someone paying thousands of dollars for courses to spend $100 on a modern OS and Office Suite. :rolleyes:

http://www.microsoft.com/student/discounts/theultimatesteal-us/default.aspx
$80? That much? :p

I am getting a copy of 7 for free (though I suspect it'll be worked into tuition somehow). And $20 for a copy of Vista bundled with Office 07 student edition.

(Regarding compatibility of courseware, our online class management software was broken for FF3 for somewhere around 3 months after the release of FF3. Maybe it's a side effect of the fact that their Blackboard system runs off of Apache on W2K3. :| There's a lot of politics involved, too. My university has campuses around the US and Canada and, contrary to everything we're taught about proper ways to provide services, is served off of a single [and let's just say...ahem...insufficient] cluster for the entire university (there should be a server onsite at each campus). But there are too many politics involved at corporate to do what would be best for the students and staff.)

[Nokia]

... you are FORCED to pay Bill Gates money (most classes now REQUIRE the use of Microsoft Office 2007, thus you get to buy Windows for you $100 + and Office for $400 or so...

www.playonlinux.com (http://www.playonlinux.com)

www.codeweavers.com (http://www.codeweavers.com)

Windows isn't a requirement for a long time now.

[troyatlarge]

I'd add that if you "convert" people to Linux, you've probably got at least a little bit of moral obligation to provide at least some support in the event of issues.

Don't just "convert" somebody and then turn on your heels and walk away.


Of course there is help - I give them a live show of using it. They also get my phone number and work number, a link to the forum for the operating system being used, a howto, and a document on some of the basics like howto update, get on-line, open the browser, open a word document. Thus far I have received no calls.

All the same, even if I did just send them out the door, one is hard pressed to believe it would be any harder on them than walking away with a new computer with Windows on it.

I stand corrected on the price of Windows and office - I had prices for systems that are like what you get with OpenOffice for free, not the watered down stuff. Here is the Microsoft price list from their web site for all to see (not trying to sell it here): http://store.microsoft.com/microsoft/Office-Suites/category/202?WT.mc_id=pointitsem_office_generic&WT.srch=1

Just to be fair, here is the link to OpenOffice, which offers everything Microsoft does in their most expensive full featured thing - but the cost - well, its FREE http://www.openoffice.org/ Furthermore, its every bit as good if not better - and it WILL be able to open next years version without having to shell out more money.



EDIT: there's also a fine line between "moderation" and "gullibility." A lot of computer users cross the line into gullible territory.

Like the one going around facebook and myspace wherein a thing comes up claiming you need to update Adobe - if it gets past your "security", then all your friends get the little window claiming Adobe needs to be updated - it seems that "keeping your system secure" is good way to "fool" the "idiots" into loading up on malware. Then, of course, there is the idiot proof stuff - like this from an article in computer weekly this last October:

"Cybercriminals have rapidly increased their capability to exploit browser vulnerabilities to pass on infections to website visitors without requiring any interaction.

But online banking fraud is not increasing at the same rate, growing by 55% in the UK, compared with the 1,000% increase in the malware infection rate."

http://www.computerweekly.com/Articles/2009/10/22/238267/malware-infections-soar-but-banks-hold-the-line.htm

Or what about this:
"Taiwan's computers were the most likely to be infected, at a rate of 69 percent, and the Russian Federation was close behind at 68 percent. The U.S. was ninth on Panda's list, with a malware infection rate of just over 58 percent, while the least infected country studied was Norway, at slightly less than 40 percent."
http://www.mxlogic.com/securitynews/viruses-worms/worldwide-malware-infections-up-15-percent-in-september721.cfm

You all are quite correct - you do need your waders in face of that much crap running around.

[forkbomb]

Of course there is help - I give them a live show of using it. They also get my phone number and work number, a link to the forum for the operating system being used, a howto, and a document on some of the basics like howto update, get on-line, open the browser, open a word document. Thus far I have received no calls.
Great. :)


I stand corrected on the price of Windows and office - I had prices for systems that are like what you get with OpenOffice for free, not the watered down stuff. Here is the Microsoft price list from their web site for all to see (not trying to sell it here): http://store.microsoft.com/microsoft/Office-Suites/category/202?WT.mc_id=pointitsem_office_generic&WT.srch=1 Hey, don't get me wrong. I said here (or in another thread? I forget) that I can get a copy of Ofice 07 for $20 but it's not even worth that for my needs.


Just to be fair, here is the link to OpenOffice, which offers everything Microsoft doesNice try. I don't have need for MS Office (as evidenced by the fact that I'm still too cheap to buy it for $20), but even I'll admit MS Office offers quite a bit of functionality that OpenOffice lacks.


The problem re: malware is preciesely that the most important attack vector still exists and probably always will - gullible and poorly informed users.

[JN4OldSchool]

OO.o cannot touch Office 2007. Word vs Writer is just the tip of that iceberg, Excel blows Calc away, there just is no comparison. PowerPoint is the standard and Impress lacks even 1/4 of the features. But the real test is when you want to embed these formats together. Office even intertwines with QuickBook Pro, which Linux does not even have an equivalent.

Listen, I am with Tom. I do not want to discourage your enthusiasm. You just discovered Linux and you want to convert the world. Heck, most of us were there once too, you will outgrow it. You will see the white underbelly of Linux and realize that it aint the cat's meow either. If OO.o is sufficient for your needs then you would be a fool to pay for an office suite. That is just common sense. I use OO.o for my business needs despite having Vista Ultimate and Office 2007 Pro which I got for under $20 each through my school. I just completed an Excel/Acess/PowerPoint class and let me tell you brother, you dont know even an iota what these programs can do. It is simply awesome. I understand your dislike of MS. I cant stand the company, they are evil. I was MS free for years, school forced me back. I am happy it did, Vista gets a bad rap. It is a great OS and I am sure Windows 7 will be even better. What I am calling full of crap are the statements about Windows. They are very uninformed. I agree with Tom, I dont know HOW you could infest Vista, even trying. Even if you did nothing beyond the default install it is safe. Firewall, auto update, and Defender on. You are simply spewing FUD about MS, and in my book that makes you just as guilty as them spewing FUD about Linux. I dont say that to antagonize you or make you angry. I say it to maybe show you that you can still evangelize Linux without stooping to measures that make you appear immature and uninformed. Sell Linux on its own merit, not through trying to one up MS. You will never do it, MS beats Linux in many ways. Linux beats Windows in many other, more important ways. Linux is the better OS. Few will ever realize that. It is okay to show where Linux excels, but you dont need to drag Windows through the dirt to do that.

Just my opinion, take it for what it is worth. :)

[forkbomb]

Yup. I agree that purchasing MS Office is foolish for most. For most users, the OpenOffice suite has enough functionality. More than enough, even. A lot of users can go months at a time needing little more than Abiword.

But saying that most users have no need for the functionality of MS Office is totally different from claiming that OpenOffice has as many features as MS Office.

(Other unsung programs of the MSOffice suite are Visio and Project.)

Brace for the flames, Sean. ;)

[Dies]

A lot of users can go months at a time needing little more than Abiword.

You really should have gone even further. ;)

A lot of, probably most, users can go months at a time needing little more than <your favorite text editor here>.

:p

[scottro]

I'm not familiar with Office, but will take the word of power users, e.g., JN4, that it has features OO lacks.

However, as Dies and Tom point out, the vast majority don't need these functions.

Also, to put on the CM hat for a moment, thank you all for being polite about this. These can be interesting discussions as long as they stay civil.

[bob]

Personally, I hope that Win7 is near-perfection. It's pointless to say that the vast majority of Windows users are dumb about their OS. Heck, I drive a car, turn on a TV, run a furnace or refrigerator every day and haven't a clue as to the electronics involved. I expect that a flip of the switch will produce the desired result. If not, it's back to the repair shop, unless under warranty. That doesn't make me dumb (beer does :D) . It just means that I'm involved in other things and I expect my appliances and vehicles to work.

If you have a secure Windows environment, you've taken away a lot of bucks from the 'mafias' of the world and their efforts will be diverted to other areas. Nothing wrong with that.

Besides, it's really about who can build the best OS. If it's Windows 7, then Mac & linux will be scrambling and improving at a record pace to keep up. I like that. Less "bling", more "working" .

[JN4OldSchool]

It's pointless to say that the vast majority of Windows users are dumb about their OS. Heck, I drive a car, turn on a TV, run a furnace or refrigerator every day and haven't a clue as to the electronics involved. I expect that a flip of the switch will produce the desired result. If not, it's back to the repair shop, unless under warranty. That doesn't make me dumb (beer does ) . It just means that I'm involved in other things and I expect my appliances and vehicles to work.

Yes, of course. Often I am guilty of calling the types of people that use Troy's services "idiots." I really do not mean this in any derogatory way but of course that is exactly how it comes across. The thing is, you still have enough common sense to know how to drive the car (I hope) and you know the basics of the mechanics at least enough to tell the mechanic that you think it might be a CV joint, or not getting fuel...Likewise, if some smartazz on the internet tells you that leaving the fridge door open actually saves on energy I would hope you are smart enough to not buy into it. You dont need to be a rocket scientist to keep Windows Vista and later safe. XP? Yes, it was unsecure. I imagine the people Troy deals with are ones running XP that were told not to update. My father in law is one of these, I have talked about him before. We all have tried to show him how to secure his XP computer, he wont listen. Now we are trying to talk him into buying a new desktop with Win 7. I hope he does soon. Really, you dont need to know anything, just leave the default settings alone and it would probably be a good idea to install a freeware virus scanner. I swear by AVG, but there are at least two other decent ones. Scott is right, I do not surf porn or play games or really do anything outside forums or research. I also do not open spam or click questionable links. I do not do these things in linux either. I have no problems and I really do nothing out of the ordinary.

But I do admit I should watch what I say about non-computer literate people. It really has no bearing on intelligence, we all have things that we are clueless about.

[scottro]

Unfortunately, the way the world is now, whether MS is better or not, the rest of the systems work at becoming compatible with it, not vice versa--that is, the samba folks worry about compatibility with AD, Mac ads mention how you can easily connect to your Windows network, and so on.

You don't see MS ads saying, now you can connect to your Mac/Unix network.

On the other hand, the relatively low profile means the skilled trojan writers spend their energy on getting into Windows machines.

[Dies]

It really has no bearing on intelligence, we all have things that we are clueless about.

I don't know, some seem to be clueless about... well, everything really. :D

[Nokia]

...

You don't see MS ads saying, now you can connect to your Mac/Unix network.

......just yet. But soon...and it will be too late :cool:

[JN4OldSchool]

I don't know, some seem to be clueless about... well, everything really. :D

I have known my share of these too. :p

[scottro]

As a friend once wrote me,

"he couldn't catch a clue even if we dumped him
stark naked, doused in clue-juice in the middle of a clue-field in the
height of the clue-mating season"...

[JN4OldSchool]

As a friend once wrote me,

"he couldn't catch a clue even if we dumped him
stark naked, doused in clue-juice in the middle of a clue-field in the
height of the clue-mating season"...

Frustrate him for hours on end, just tell him to pee in the corner in a round room. :)

[scottro]

Cruel but funny. In the cruel but funny department

http://www.makeuseof.com/tech-fun/how-do-i-turn-off-caps-lock/

[JN4OldSchool]

lol, that is good.

edit: LOL, THAT IS GOOD! :p

[forkbomb]

...just yet. But soon...and it will be too late :cool:
If I recall, Windows did have that "Windows client for UNIX" deal that let you connect to NFS shares or something. Of course, they stopped maintaining it. Even if you could get it installed I doubt it would work with newer NFS servers.

[scottro]

I'm not sure if it's still available or not. Around NT3 and NT4, they *were* concerned with interoperating with other systems. They were the new kid, and most places had either Unix or Novell for shared resources.

A lot of the MCSE stuff at at that time had to do with integrating with and/or migrating from Unix/Novell.

AD has a lot of good points, and at present, does things that other directory servers don't do. Additionally, it's extremely well documented.

In contrast, even Sun Directory server is often lacking documentation in key areas, and the documents are harder to find. (They also do things like have a link to a patch take you to a search site that takes you to a 404, but that's Sun for ya.)

[savage]

Just to chip in about pricing of MS products for schools/students, when I was at University, the University had signed up to the MS Academic Alliance (http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-gb/academic/default.aspx) (not sure if this costs the Uni), but as a member, all students got uggins loads of free MS software, I personally bagged:

Windows Server 2003 & 2008 Enterprise
Windows XP Pro & Vista Business
SQL Server 2005
Office 2003
Visual Studio 2005 and 2008 Enterprise

All for the tidy sum of £0. If your school isn't a member, you may want to suggest it to them to look into.

As for Windows 7 sucking, personally I like it. My only gripe is that I use Windows primarily for gaming, and FPS compared to XP suck. One game I tried (admittedly it's pretty heavy on graphics) had 30-40fps in XP and barely reached 5fps in Win7. So by switching to Windows 7, I'll need a new graphics card to continue gaming the way I do now.

Personally I think Win7 should have an "XP mode" which dumps all the cruft (Aero etc.) and lets us XP lovers keep our Win2k look and resource usage.

[Dies]

Personally I think Win7 should have an "XP mode" which dumps all the cruft (Aero etc.) and lets us XP lovers keep our Win2k look and resource usage.

It already does that if you go into advanced settings and tell it to optimize for performance, doesn't it?

Pretty sure it does, personally I can't stand the win2k look so can't be 100% sure...

[forkbomb]

As for Windows 7 sucking, personally I like it. My only gripe is that I use Windows primarily for gaming, and FPS compared to XP suck. One game I tried (admittedly it's pretty heavy on graphics) had 30-40fps in XP and barely reached 5fps in Win7. So by switching to Windows 7, I'll need a new graphics card to continue gaming the way I do now.

Personally I think Win7 should have an "XP mode" which dumps all the cruft (Aero etc.) and lets us XP lovers keep our Win2k look and resource usage.
It's not too bad, to be honest. We had the option at my school to take out a loaner DVD or DL the iso, and I grabbed the loaner because I didn't feel like downloading it.

Decided to install it last night. It's been okay, except somewhere between updating and disabling a couple (I thought) unneeded services, it stopped booting.

Rebooted with SystemRescueCD to discover that the installer had "kindly" put the 200MB "system partition" on unallocated space on another disk and had blown away my Fedora GRUB. I have two IDE disks and one SATA disk and wanted Windows to go to the SATA disk - which is why, uhh, you know, I picked to install to the SATA disk. In any case I didn't feel like trying to figure out how to get the OS to boot again. Reinstalling now... after destroying my Fedora partitions (not a big deal cause I wasn't impressed with F11 anyway :p) and putting ext2 partitions on them just to keep Windows away. Hopefully this issue doesn't resurface after I've given back the loaner (guess I'll try to find if I can still get the iso anyway).

EDIT: Of course, naturally, this happened after going through my whole normal routine of installing dozens of programs including my copy of Office '07. :rolleyes:

[troyatlarge]

A gal bought an HP laptop with vista on it. After getting it it begged her to make recovery disk of her system, which she did (three DVD disk for the job). Later she went out and got her system all noodled up and brought it to us to back up her files and restore her computer to the original settings. Have to "buy" the resort disk as the one made, from the system itself, did not actually make correctly and the re-install thus crashes when it looks for disk three (after an hour of grinding to get that far).

Of course we could re-install Vista and hunt down the drivers (which takes a half day in itself if you have to deal with Toshiba!) and get her system up and running, except that such won't really do as she has many documents written in stuff that OpenOffice can not read - thus it is pay for and wait for the restore disk to come in.

To be 100% honest, it seems to me that there are many people who put up with this sort of thing out of habit and tradition, not out of "reason". When one combines this lack of awareness with a group of people who are tired of "surprise, its gonna cost you again", one finds that getting them to convert to Linux is often EASY - after all, like the icebox or the car, they just want the dang thing to work without being some leach draining off the money - when they find out it works, and its free, they tend to be REAL INTERESTED. When they learn they don't need to defrag it and they don't tend to need Norton or AVG or Macafee or Malwarebytes or registry repairs, etc, etc, etc - they get real interested. When they see the desktop cube, its all over for most of them, except, of course, those who get their internet service via the verizon or alltel cell phone, for such companies don't "support" Linux - which then results in people being rather depressed because their choice of connection company forces their hand in their choice of getting the leach off the money nipple.

[steelaworkn]

You guys are so funny. I've been using W7 for a while now. It just works. It has an XP mode (Ultimate version) and I have even run Freelancer on it. When I first put it on I was using 256 Nvidia card. It worked just fine. I run Virtual Box on it for testing other OSes and have zero issues. It works best with a minimum of 2gs of ram though. I have since upgraded to a 512 nvidia card. My other one overheated which is typical of cheap cards

Though not a gamer, I do run Steam and test various games out for my kids. I haven't had any issues. I even put a Free Disc Burner on it called "Image Burn". It works perfectly.

I have notice that if you load the bottom task bar down with too many icons, it can really steal the ram. And, like all Windows OSes since XP, if you have add ram, it will use it, so you got to manage you systems regularly or you will run out of memory when you need it the most.

Newegg.com has W7 Ultimate 64 bit for builders at around $190 US. That's a pretty good deal if you ask me. It is a solid OS and I'm still using the RC version. Can't wait to get the actual store version. And go Ultimate.

[adrianx]

When people complain about problems with Fedora, I also think that they are funny. Honestly, I have had almost no problems with my ATI card, Pulseaudio and most other things for that matter. I always do full updates, i.e. Kernel and everything and have been running it since mid-2007. SELinux is also always enforced. My little private Apache web server has always worked just fine. I've just assumed that it is because other people do more interesting things and have more exotic hardware than I do.

The biggest problem I had was when my mobile broadband stopped working for a few months. It turns out, I followed obsolete instructions for setting up USB in VirtualBox. I shouldn't have touched fstab at all, well, not since 3.x.

Edit: Sure, VLC was unusable for a while. Amarok I still don't want to touch. There were even a few problems with Eclipse for a while... But you know what, I adapted and used something else and in some cases even a different Distro. Of course not everyone can afford to be flexible - I realise that. So, I'm not boasting, I'm just lucky that I don't seem to suffer as much and that I cannot relate to most of the complains I see on this forum. Oh, and I try to RTFM (but I am sometimes lazy), and buying new hardware can get a bit nerve-racking at times. You can't always trust "Google".

Edit2: I think it is great that some open-minded individuals love every OS equally. Good for them, but I'm even more glad that there are a few people that feel strongly about a particular OS. Just imagine how boring and stagnant technology would become if everyone embraced everything... and just went with the flow...

[JN4OldSchool]

When people complain about problems with Fedora, I also think that they are funny. Honestly, I have had almost no problems with my ATI card, Pulseaudio and most other things for that matter. I always do full updates, i.e. Kernel and everything and have been running it since mid-2007. SELinux is also always enforced. My little private Apache web server has always worked just fine. I've just assumed that it is because other people do more interesting things and have more exotic hardware than I do.

The biggest problem I had was when my mobile broadband stopped working for a few months. It turns out, I followed obsolete instructions for setting up USB in VirtualBox. I shouldn't have touched fstab at all, well, not since 3.x.

Edit: Sure, VLC was unusable for a while. Amarok I still don't want to touch. There were even a few problems with Eclipse for a while... But you know what, I adapted and used something else and in some cases even a different Distro. Of course not everyone can afford to be flexible - I realise that. So, I'm not boasting, I'm just lucky that I don't seem to suffer as much and that I cannot relate to most of the complains I see on this forum. Oh, and I try to RTFM (but I am sometimes lazy), and buying new hardware can get a bit nerve-racking at times. You can't always trust "Google".

Edit2: I think it is great that some open-minded individuals love every OS equally. Good for them, but I'm even more glad that there are a few people that feel strongly about a particular OS. Just imagine how boring and stagnant technology would become if everyone embraced everything... and just went with the flow...

I have concluded a long time ago that 98% of the complaints about ANY OS is user error. People either not knowing the right way to do something or just ignoring it. Most of the time it is just funny. I think what gets me the most is the belief that someone who does not have enough common sense to run Windows correctly will find linux easy and problem free. Linux does make a great alternative to Windows and the world would be a much better place if Linux even had 30% market share of desktop OS's. But most people just will not be bothered to even take a few hours to figure out the OS. So...

[troyatlarge]

I have notice that if you load the bottom task bar down with too many icons, it can really steal the ram. And, like all Windows OSes since XP, if you have add ram, it will use it, so you got to manage you systems regularly or you will run out of memory when you need it the most.


Although you quite correct about it being a memory hog at times, you very mistaken about all Windows systems since XP using RAM when you add it. In general, on a 32 bit system, because of the way addressing works, one had an upper limit of 4 G of RAM. There about a decade ago lintel changed the Intell chips such that they would handle physical address extension (PAE) thereby making it such that you could add up to 64G of RAM on a 32 bit system and actually make use of it, so long, that is, as your "operating system" was programmed to handle it.

Although Intell did make this change a decade or so ago, Windows never has caught up as they don't offer actual PAE on 32 bit systems. Of course you can buy a 64 bit system and get more memory, after all, the address bus on a 64 bit system is capable of far more than a 32 bit system, but that does not render PAE actually usable in the "real" way.

Microsoft does use it in the "fake" way on 32 bit system. You can turn on the PAE flag even though your operating system still is not programmed to actually extend the amount of memory you can handle. There are two advantages in doing this. One, you can claim things like "Windows, now with PAE". The other is that some virus apparently don't function if the PAE flag is set, thus they can't get certain old school virus. All the same, if you stick anything more than 3G in a 32 bit Windows box, PAE flag set or not, it will not use it or see it (perhaps one of you Windows experts could explain to all why Vista can even make use of the 4 G allowable in a 32 bit system, but instead is forced to be limited to 3 G - one of which is sucked up by the operating system, thus it "has" 2G left to be place into service).

I will give credit to Windows for this - we get memory sticks here from the above limits of Visita, above all by certain beer addicted gamers. They get the notion that Vista can use 4G memory, some even believing it uses it even though it can't see it. Of course they then crash with their fancy video cards so come in, with new memory in hand, to be changed out as they are now certain their memory does not work. You explain to them they have been mislead, but somewhere out in web land they got this notion of Windows and PAE, so, we end up with the sticks and actually charge them for the privilege. They tend to be the same guys who are then in later with their new 64 bit systems and 8 G in new memory sticks to replace (there is bug out there which is memory flooding 64 bit Microsoft systems - or that's the only place I've seen it thus far). You know how many zippy Linux boxes we have created out of that - its GREAT!

[steelaworkn]

Interesting Troy. Thanks for that info. This is the greatest computer forum on the planet IMHO. I've browsed other Linux forums and really didn't want to join because of how hard they are on newbees. You all are very inviting and never seem to get tired of sharing your knowledge.

Troy, I know the PAE thing has been posted here before, but I haven't really payed attention until now. Thanks. It makes since now.

So, do you think Windows 7 is still not really going truly make use of that technology?

[troyatlarge]

I have concluded a long time ago that 98% of the complaints about ANY OS is user error.

They done told me I done had to re-boot the computer - so I took my red-wings after it and now she don't wanna start, please advize.

[JN4OldSchool]

They done told me I done had to re-boot the computer - so I took my red-wings after it and now she don't wanna start, please advize.

Exactly! Or people who do not realize that HP laptops have a recovery partition that contains all the drivers that the laptop needs. Or that the recovery DVD (3 of them? :confused: ) that a consumer would burn is just a mirror of what is on the recovery partition, which is simply a fresh install of the OS which would include all the HP software needed. I guess your "customer" was too stupid to back up all her precious documents which you claim OO.o cannot read. Which is in itself funny as you earlier claim that OO.o is a substitute for Office. Hmmm...

But the bottom line of the whole post was that Windows sucks because when you screw it up you have to reinstall it. Boy, makes me happy to be running Linux on which when i screw it up I dont have to reins...er...well...I guess when you screw up Linux you end up reinstalling that too! Good thing I made a Linux recovery DVD...er...well...

I would further pick apart that post, or the one on RAM, but why bother? It would just be a waste of my time anyway. Your posts speak loud enough all by themselves. :)

edit: I did want to take this opportunity to once again ask when people will learn to keep their personal data on a separate partition? This applies to Windows as well as Linux. Had your customer done this she would be in good shape now. Her data would be safe. It is also easy to mirror a whole partition on another drive for backup because of course we all realize that ANY drive with ANY OS on it can die at ANY time. Then your data is history unless you have some big bucks.

Yes Troy, it all boils down to common sense.

[scottro]

For what it's worth, I've found OO to be able to open anything I've come across in MS Office. I wouldn't argue with JN4 about their respective abilities--I just type letters and make spreadsheets to list things, and I doubt he wants a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent. :)

[JN4OldSchool]

For what it's worth, I've found OO to be able to open anything I've come across in MS Office. I wouldn't argue with JN4 about their respective abilities--I just type letters and make spreadsheets to list things, and I doubt he wants a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent. :)

It is beside the point for this argument anyway, why does OO.o need to open ANYTHING? Just pop in a live Linux CD (Knoppix) and save the woman's documents. :)

[savage]

It already does that if you go into advanced settings and tell it to optimize for performance, doesn't it?

Pretty sure it does, personally I can't stand the win2k look so can't be 100% sure...You could be right there. With Vista, it dropped you back to the Win2k look, which IMO doesn't work at all with the Vista Explorer etc. (it works quite well with XP), but I think it's basically themed on top of Aero, rather than disabling Aero completely.

I've just wiped my PC to setup a nice fast RAID0, but when I get it back up and running, I'm going to go on a resource-itarian mission with it, and disable as much as I can to see just how quick I can get it running games in comparison to XP. They say the underlying code is faster, so in theory disabling the eye-candy, I should hopefully get equal, if not better results.

[troyatlarge]

Clearly I gave you the wrong idea - her data is perfectly safe. The problem is that she can not read her data.

Her system was trashed with hacks bad enough to justify taking the hard drive down to zeros and do a complete re-install (inclusive of the recovery partition which also had infections). Not a big thing except she had recovery disk that did not work and now has to pay to get them and wait to get them - the big deal with that, outside of the money, is that she can not deal with her data on her computer.

Yes, if Fedora crashed and got all messed up you would have to reload it. Just like Windows you would have to pay for, and wait for the disk to show up in the mail, so you could do something complex like read your own documents and bank spread sheet - I think you see the point.

OpenOffice is a replacement for Office and Works - you can write documents in it and keep your bank records all with more features than most people every care to use. There are HUGE differences however, the biggest being that the Microsoft Side simply can't read anything but Microsoft and only some of that depending upon case (old Microsoft is unable to read new Microsoft). Compare that to OpenOffice which at makes a great attempt to read Microsoft, and does read many documents quite successfully, and also gives to Microsoft, and the rest of the planet, everything which is needed to read OpenOffice documents (its not that Microsoft can't, its that they actively choose not to).

By all mean tear apart the RAM stuff - the reason to do so is to advance learning, which is always a GREAT thing. In part I got my information from wikipedia and you can read it at the following link, inclusive of tables showing what various operating systems can handle: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_Address_Extension If you read it, by all means follow the links attached to windows supporting PAE for there you will (or at least use to) find how the flag is set as a virus protection.

[troyatlarge]

My Windows talk cursed me - just spent an hour removing pcphone from a windows registry and done went and messed it up (the user tried to un-install it, god only knows how, but it left tones of stuff). Now it won't restore to an earlier date! I promise not to upset JN4 with windows talk any more, I promise not to upset JN4 with windows talk any more, I promise....

[Dies]

...
There are HUGE differences however, the biggest being that the Microsoft Side simply can't read anything but Microsoft and only some of that depending upon case (old Microsoft is unable to read new Microsoft). Compare that to OpenOffice which at makes a great attempt to read Microsoft, and does read many documents quite successfully, and also gives to Microsoft, and the rest of the planet, everything which is needed to read OpenOffice documents (its not that Microsoft can't, its that they actively choose not to).
...

http://openoffice.bouncer.osuosl.org/?product=OpenOffice.org&os=winwjre&lang=en-US&version=3.1.1

Just click that link. Then double click the installer. There you go.

Now what was your point again. :confused:

[JN4OldSchool]

My Windows talk cursed me - just spent an hour removing pcphone from a windows registry and done went and messed it up (the user tried to un-install it, god only knows how, but it left tones of stuff). Now it won't restore to an earlier date! I promise not to upset JN4 with windows talk any more, I promise not to upset JN4 with windows talk any more, I promise....

No, no, you go right ahead! It is more amusement than I have had since Bee was banned. :D

edit: Why SHOULD MS care about reading .odt? No one uses it, at least not yet. If anything this is enough to turn people off of using OO.o, not the other way around. After all, granny smith and cousin pearl and all the rest of the gang run Windows and Office. Gots ta be compatable ya know!

Just like Windows wont bother even seeing an ext* partition. This is a major annoyance for me, but look at their side. Why would they care? They are the ones in the catbirds seat. Dont get me wrong, I will state again that MS is an evil company. I dont need to defend them. But I am a realist and I am sane. It is what it is. And I will give credit when credit is due, even to MS.

[Dies]

...
Just like Windows wont bother even seeing an ext* partition. This is a major annoyance for me, but look at their side. Why would they care? They are the ones in the catbirds seat. Dont get me wrong, I will state again that MS is an evil company. I dont need to defend them. But I am a realist and I am sane. It is what it is. And I will give credit when credit is due, even to MS.

http://www.fs-driver.org/download/Ext2IFS_1_11a.exe

Just click that link. Then double click the installer. There you go.

Now what was your point again. :confused:


:p

[forkbomb]

When people complain about problems with Fedora, I also think that they are funny. Honestly, I have had almost no problems with my ATI card, Pulseaudio and most other things for that matter.
Perhaps partially. Mileage may vary.

Sure, VLC was unusable for a while. Amarok I still don't want to touch.
Thing is, some times things like that aren't the fault of Fedora per se. For example, it's not really the fault of Fedora that Amarok's devs decided to beat the UI severely. And VLC... ugh. It's problematic on quite a few distros.

I think it is great that some open-minded individuals love every OS equally.
What about those of us who equally hate every OS? :p

I have concluded a long time ago that 98% of the complaints about ANY OS is user error.
Perhaps. But I suppose there are plenty of instances where it just comes to "not liking it." Like you and I got with Fedora eventually.

[jflesher]

The next version of Windoz that will be more secure, will be call Windux.

Ever wonder who is writing all these Viruses, Malware and Spyware?

Job security is one thing that would lead you to believe its just the people with the cure (Like Norton and the likes); kind of like the medical industry; if the flu shots are not selling very well, then they have to invent a killer flu or at least make you think there is one out there so you'll buy the anti-virus or Vaccine.

But mostly; I think its just someone that is real bored with life and has the killer flu.

[scottro]

In the old days, that was probably the cause--I remember on a mailing list of something or another, someone admitted they had written viruses in their youth, and said that it was like any other program, they wanted to see if it would work.

These days, however, it seems that there's quite a bit of money in it

Going up a few posts, to JN4's answer about MS not being able to read some formats, I fear that I have to agree--as I said, maybe in this thread, it's everyone else trying to be able to work with MS, not the other way around. Why should they care. MS Office is the de facto standard.

As a pic on punditkitchen, or one of those sites, shows....
Yup, punditkitchen

http://punditkitchen.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/political-pictures-bill-gates-own-you.jpg

[GallComp]

OpenOffice is a replacement for Office and Works
Wrong, OpenOffice is an alternative for Office, not a replacement. A replacement would have all the features of MS office, currently OO doesn't.

- you can write documents in it and keep your bank records all with more features than most people every care to use. There are HUGE differences however, the biggest being that the Microsoft Side simply can't read anything but Microsoft and only some of that depending upon case (old Microsoft is unable to read new Microsoft).
Ms office does not need to read other formats, they are the standard productivity software. The argument about old office suites not been able to read the new office formats is just bull. How can you expect a program made in 2003 to look into the future and read the features, and different elements implemented into a new format (totally different) implemented in 2007.

Compare that to OpenOffice which at makes a great attempt to read Microsoft, and does read many documents quite successfully, and also gives to Microsoft, and the rest of the planet, everything which is needed to read OpenOffice documents (its not that Microsoft can't, its that they actively choose not to).


Again, why should they do that, they own the market and the only important thing to read is their own formats.

[scottro]

Actually, I don't think anyone has yet mentioned that MS does provide a free download to enable Office 2003 to read Office 2007 files.

One can hate MS as much as they want, but regardless, they still have enough control of the market and desktop to make it very difficult to avoid. Other companies and hardware vendors worry about being compatible with them, not vice versa.

On the other hand, the software industry's version of the RIAA and MPAA, the BSA (not to be confused with the Boyscouts of American) will swoop down on midsize companies (as opposed to companies who could afford to fight them) and get payment for licensing violations. As the licensing can be confusing (for non-students) :), they are often successful.

This does, however, sometimes backfire. There is a guitar string manufacturer, who, after being fined, switched over completely to opensource. As their president said, you don't send armed federal marshalls after your customers and expect them to remain your customers.

[forkbomb]

Actually, I don't think anyone has yet mentioned that MS does provide a free download to enable Office 2003 to read Office 2007 files.

True, but it does remind me of the problem I had of trying to get one not-so-computer-literate person with 07 to try to communicate to another with 03. It was a toss up: should I explain to the person with 03 how to download and enable the compat pack (keep in mind the act of downloading and installing something is pretty scary and confusing to some folks) or explaining to the one with 07 how to save as the old format. And as for saving as the old format, either it would have to be done every time the 07 person wanted to send something to the 03 person, while setting Office 07 to default to the old format (even if it can be done) might cause Office to squak every time you saved something.

Downloading and installing compatibility fixes and changing some settings can be pretty confusing if not aggravating for those folks who just, as some folks around here say, "just want the damn thing to work."

As the licensing can be confusing (for non-students) :)
That's okay. I don't get it either. :p

[JN4OldSchool]

True, but it does remind me of the problem I had of trying to get one not-so-computer-literate person with 07 to try to communicate to another with 03. It was a toss up: should I explain to the person with 03 how to download and enable the compat pack (keep in mind the act of downloading and installing something is pretty scary and confusing to some folks) or explaining to the one with 07 how to save as the old format. And as for saving as the old format, either it would have to be done every time the 07 person wanted to send something to the 03 person, while setting Office 07 to default to the old format (even if it can be done) might cause Office to squak every time you saved something.

Downloading and installing compatibility fixes and changing some settings can be pretty confusing if not aggravating for those folks who just, as some folks around here say, "just want the damn thing to work."


That's okay. I don't get it either. :p

Yes, you can save as default into .doc or even pdf or, and get this, as odt!

http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/4848/10292009100020am.png

And yes, I realize my screenshot does not show saving as default, I was pointing to the odt option, but you can set the default to whatever you want...naturally. Hey, it is Office 2007! :)

[troyatlarge]

edit: Why SHOULD MS care about reading .odt? No one uses it, at least not yet. If anything this is enough to turn people off of using OO.o, not the other way around. After all, granny smith and cousin pearl and all the rest of the gang run Windows and Office. Gots ta be compatable ya know!

Just like Windows wont bother even seeing an ext* partition. This is a major annoyance for me, but look at their side. Why would they care? They are the ones in the catbirds seat. Dont get me wrong, I will state again that MS is an evil company. I dont need to defend them. But I am a realist and I am sane. It is what it is. And I will give credit when credit is due, even to MS.

When you load OpenOffice they somewhat beg you to register with them so they can start demonstrating they already do have a sizable chunk of the market - which makes me wonder how it is you, or anyone for that matter, knows their market share when they themselves have no way of demonstrating it.

What actually is a computer for to your typical end user? Do many people use their personal computers to exchange information in some way over the internet? Do they do very basic things like read and write via the computer? I don't not have studies to support me, but my intuitive notion is that the ability to read and write via the computer is fundamental to the tool itself for the vast majority of people - that is, having the computer able to display documents for reading, and creating documents via writing, is something that makes the tool useful.

If I am correct about that, then it follows that a personal computer which is unable to do such a common task, is fundamentally flawed. This is exactly the problem the lady at hand has. She wrote letters using her computer. Upon a clean re-load she is unable to read her letters without going through a bunch of hoops.

Now why, in the year 2009, is it the case that basic reading and writing in exchanged documents is such a problem? Why do we have to have a program that has of list a half a block long that saves documents in this or that form so that some other user can read them? The answer, more than for any other reason, comes down to one thing - there is an active idea that to do basic things like read and write documents exchanged on a computer, all human beings should send money to a man for the "privilege". To put it more realistically, the basic tasks of personal computing are actively hampered and suppressed to increase the probability of sending an individual money.

You would see it right away if at the snap of the figures we did such a thing to you phone - you buy the phone, you buy the service to hook up the phone to the outside world, but on this day forward you either have to pay "John the phone King" so you can talk to anyone, or else jump through a bunch of hoops to make your phone able to talk to others until "John the phone King" comes out with his latest version - then you can't talk to people with it until people can figure out a work around. Would you stand up and say "the heck with John the phone Kings power, his dang system is fundamentally flawed", or would you stand up and say "God John the phone King is so smart and his stuff works so good, after all,everyone agrees, you can communicate just fine, when you pay him "?

[troyatlarge]

Wrong, OpenOffice is an alternative for Office, not a replacement. A replacement would have all the features of MS office, currently OO doesn't.


Ms office does not need to read other formats, they are the standard productivity software. The argument about old office suites not been able to read the new office formats is just bull. How can you expect a program made in 2003 to look into the future and read the features, and different elements implemented into a new format (totally different) implemented in 2007.



Again, why should they do that, they own the market and the only important thing to read is their own formats.

Just to be clear, the lady had Windows. She wrote letter using a Windows program. We reloaded Windows. She can not open and read her documents because Windows does not come with such ability. As such I would argue that for them the "only important thing" is NOT the abilty to read their own documents, but instead their true "only important thing" is leaving its mark, which you look at exactly when you notice "they are NOT reading their own format".

[JN4OldSchool]

Troy, what are you smoking?

When you load OpenOffice they somewhat beg you to register with them so they can start demonstrating they already do have a sizable chunk of the market - which makes me wonder how it is you, or anyone for that matter, knows their market share when they themselves have no way of demonstrating it.

Even with the Windows users I suspect OO.o is a very minor part of the office suite market. I hope they grow. As you say, it is a very functional, awesome program considering what you pay for it. It can fulfill most people's needs. But it is really a moot point.

What actually is a computer for to your typical end user? Do many people use their personal computers to exchange information in some way over the internet? Do they do very basic things like read and write via the computer? I don't not have studies to support me, but my intuitive notion is that the ability to read and write via the computer is fundamental to the tool itself for the vast majority of people - that is, having the computer able to display documents for reading, and creating documents via writing, is something that makes the tool useful.

I agree completely.

If I am correct about that, then it follows that a personal computer which is unable to do such a common task, is fundamentally flawed. This is exactly the problem the lady at hand has. She wrote letters using her computer. Upon a clean re-load she is unable to read her letters without going through a bunch of hoops.

Your lady is stupid then. She must have jumped through those hoops to begin with, why not just load up her copy of Office again? If not then install OO.o. It can read docx. Some formatting does not carry through; tough! It is a free program. You dont get a Cadillac ride in a Yugo. Go figure.

Now why, in the year 2009, is it the case that basic reading and writing in exchanged documents is such a problem?

Is it? You have not shown me this. In fact, see my screenshot right above your post. I have shown the opposite. Now, I will grant you that as a student I was FORCED into Office 2007. Formatting in OO.o just does not carry over firm enough. I also have to turn assignments in using the docx format. But when an average text book costs $100+ and considering I was able to purchase both Vista Ultimate AND Office 2007 Enterprise for UNDER $40 then I can hardly complain.

Why do we have to have a program that has of list a half a block long that saves documents in this or that form so that some other user can read them? The answer, more than for any other reason, comes down to one thing - there is an active idea that to do basic things like read and write documents exchanged on a computer, all human beings should send money to a man for the "privilege". To put it more realistically, the basic tasks of personal computing are actively hampered and suppressed to increase the probability of sending an individual money.

I actually agree with you. I am all for open protocols in every format. But the fact remains that you are talking out of the side of your mouth because documents can now be exchanged seamlessly.

You would see it right away if at the snap of the figures we did such a thing to you phone - you buy the phone, you buy the service to hook up the phone to the outside world, but on this day forward you either have to pay "John the phone King" so you can talk to anyone, or else jump through a bunch of hoops to make your phone able to talk to others until "John the phone King" comes out with his latest version - then you can't talk to people with it until people can figure out a work around. Would you stand up and say "the heck with John the phone Kings power, his dang system is fundamentally flawed", or would you stand up and say "God John the phone King is so smart and his stuff works so good, after all,everyone agrees, you can communicate just fine, when you pay him "?

WTF? I had to pay for my phone. Everyone pays for their phone. What is your point?

Just to be clear, the lady had Windows. She wrote letter using a Windows program. We reloaded Windows. She can not open and read her documents because Windows does not come with such ability. As such I would argue that for them the "only important thing" is NOT the abilty to read their own documents, but instead their true "only important thing" is leaving its mark, which you look at exactly when you notice "they are NOT reading their own format".

WHAT Windows program? See, you NEVER say! WHY is that? Why not RELOAD the Windows program she used? Where is your argument here? What format did she use that other word processors cannot see it? Do you work for our current administration? Your arguments are suspiciously similar to what is coming out of congress and the whitehouse lately! :rolleyes:

[adrianx]

I found another bit of dirt on MS which shows one of the many ways in which they operate. Pity many people won't care.... (who cares about silly stuff like standards and future generations)
In this Part I'll look at how Microsoft is using their dominance in SC34 to push through hundreds of changes and additions to OOXML, in a misuse of a procedure intended for correcting drafting errors, to make OOXML "conform" to Microsoft's monopoly product....It doesn't matter what WG4 previously told SC34, or what JTC1 Directives say, if ISO/IEC 29500 does not match what Microsoft Office actually writes out, then this is by definition a drafting error, and the standard will be "corrected" to conform with MS Office. Let that sink in for a little, until you realize how backwards this is....
For most standards, multiple vendors work together to improve interoperability and to increase their conformance with the standard. But with OOXML a single vendor stuffs the committee and works to make the standard better conform to Microsoft's monopoly product.
So although Microsoft Office does not conform to ISO/IEC 29500 today, I have no doubt that within a few months it will fully conform. But not a single line of code will have changed in the Office product. Office 2007 will be retroactively made to conform to ISO/IEC 29500. What will happen is the standard will be modified to match that single vendor's products, by misapplication of an ISO procedure intended for fixing minor drafting errors.
So why go through all this trouble? I believe this is all about getting the OOXML standard "corrected" so Microsoft can push for it to get it officially adopted around the world. The only reason they've held back so far is because MS Office does not actually implement ISO/IEC 29500 today. So it would have been counter productive for them to push for official adoption. However, once this oversight is remedied, by changing the standard to match their product, then watch out.
The side effect, perhaps unintended, is that the OOXML standard is thus clearly marked to be unstable and unsuitable for adoption or implementation.http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=2009102810072196

[JN4OldSchool]

I found another bit of dirt on MS which shows one of the many ways in which they operate. Pity many people won't care.... (who cares about silly stuff like standards and future generations)
http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=2009102810072196

Now THIS is all true and is a factor. MS controls the market, they have the weight and they throw it around. They have bullied everyone else either into submission or out of business. I dont think anyone here would argue that. :)

[Hlingler]

That phenomenon is usually called "beating the horse to fit the shoe". :D

V

[forkbomb]

When you load OpenOffice they somewhat beg you to register with them so they can start demonstrating they already do have a sizable chunk of the market
Nah. It's just cause it's Sun. Virtualbox and Java also prompt you to register, if I recall properly.

[troyatlarge]

Troy, what are you smoking?

Is it? You have not shown me this. In fact, see my screenshot right above your post. I have shown the opposite. Now, I will grant you that as a student I was FORCED into Office 2007. Formatting in OO.o just does not carry over firm enough. I also have to turn assignments in using the docx format. But when an average text book costs $100+ and considering I was able to purchase both Vista Ultimate AND Office 2007 Enterprise for UNDER $40 then I can hardly complain.

I actually agree with you. I am all for open protocols in every format. But the fact remains that you are talking out of the side of your mouth because documents can now be exchanged seamlessly.

WTF? I had to pay for my phone. Everyone pays for their phone. What is your point?



I don't smoke or drug use in any way - nor am I big on getting drunk. The program the lady uses saves in .wps - which is microsoft works. It has been so unreadable by everything other than itself that even Microsoft had to finally give in some. As I said to start, she wrote letter, ended up with a Microsoft system reload only to discover she could not read the letter - the reason is one, someone wants to be paid for you to read a document, and it is the only reason.

With respect to "documents can now be exchanged seamlessly", I disagree. Take a computer running only Linux with say OpenOffice. Get an email account with yahoo. Send to that account an excel document from a microsoft box. Now go open it with your Linux box - guess what, you can't because your machine does not have the "proper" software. Now perhaps we differ in the way we attach meaning to the term seamless, for I find that, in this day an age, to be not a seam, but a big a** wall. That OpenOffice could read it, if they would load it on you to start with, makes no difference. The reason, pay the King.

With respect to the phone, perhaps you will get it this way: Say you pay for your phone and your phone service connection, and your long distance billing. If the phone was like what we have with the above problems, then the following could take place: I call you and you receive a message "Troy has an important call for you, but for you to hear it, you must pay the King and until you do, to bad, you can't hear it". To be more realistic, we would have to build you some work around's so you could dial up a series of numbers and after a little time get the message without paying the King - but mostly people just pay the King because not many are to into learning the dang work-around'ss - then it would be rather like our "modern" computing. Its not that hard to grasp.

To bring it home with phones, it actually has taken place in American history, in a somewhat altered form. Have you ever looked at the old photo's of people with 5 or 7 phones on their desk? That was a day when what you might call free competition was allowed in phone service. The only people you could talk to on your phone where people on that one service. You could not "communicate" with people on another service unless you "bought their service". Business men where forced to end up paying for a huge number of services just to "keep up". An ice storm hit New York city, the telephone lines of all those different companies came down making a huge mess and know one knew who owned what lines (there is lots of photos of that too). In the aftermath people came to understand exactly what I'm talking about above and they said enough of this extraction of money for nothing but stupidity - an act which resulted in the best telephone communication on earth from then until after the breakup of AT&T (now even India has better service than the USA).

It is not rocket science or anything complex like the programming stuff all you folks know (I'm pretty brain dead with computers, that's why I'm a tech!) - its simply a matter of seeing it for what it is.

[scottro]

Which to take it totally off topic--on a Linux list to which I belong, someone had spoken of their difficulty following the technical jargon.

Some else replied, "I'm a neurosurgeon so I have little technical background and I too find it difficult." What was amusing is that the doctor was mentioning his profession to show that he had little technical background. To which of course, I had to respond, So much for the statement that it doesn't take a brain surgeon to understand this stuff.

[JN4OldSchool]

Dude, Calc opens Excel documents just fine. In fact, I just did a comparison on this for a thread I was going to start. I even had a bunch of screenshots. There are many problems, hyperlinks do not work and formatting is all screwed up. But Calc will open .xlsx just fine. Formulas carry over and spreadsheets at least work.

Why does your lady not just install works again? Who uses MS Works anyway? I have no experience with it to know if the formatting is readable by anything else. If you want to make a federal case against MS on this then I suppose you can. But I still do not understand what the problem is. She had works to type this stuff up, why not just reinstall it? What is this "pay the king" stuff? Whose fault is it that she chose an office suite that is not compatible with anything else?

[scottro]

Isn't Works free, and included with the system? Or is that Windows 95 or something?

Sigh, can't keep track.

[JN4OldSchool]

Isn't Works free, and included with the system? Or is that Windows 95 or something?

Sigh, can't keep track.

That's what I thought but wikipedia enlightened me. There is a compatibility pack for Office and you can import works format into Office but I guess that isnt doing him any good if he wont buy office. I think his complaint is OO.o wont read the works format. <shrugs> My TRS-80 wont either, whatever... :rolleyes:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Works

from that link, this in particular might prove interesting:

A general C++ library, which in 2006 was still being developed and has been experimentally published as wps_test[10], works for reading many different Microsoft Works versions. It was later published as 'libwps'[11]. As of December 2007, no mainstream versions of OpenOffice.org, AbiWord, or KWord have included it for various reasons. OpenOffice.org has not included it because of restrictions with the Joint Copyright Assignment (JCA)[12], but OpenOffice.org variants such as OxygenOffice, Go-oo and NeoOffice have included libwps. Also, libwps provides a command line converter. A commercially-available solution for converting to and from Microsoft Works files on the Macintosh platform is the MacLinkPlus product from DataViz. Free online conversion services are also available.[13] Microsoft Works uses structured storage as a container format for its data.

libwps is available in the Ubuntu repo, in fact I have it installed in Mint. Dont know why. I am only running OO.o AND Office 2007 (wine) on that install. Of course I have no wps files to test it on...

[scottro]

Sigh, I have a VERY vague memory--not even sure if it was this company or my old company--of having to open one. I don't remember how I did it. (Don't think MS Office 2007 was available.)

I think I found some freeware somewhere..

If I remembered, I'd share the knowledge, but it totally eludes me. If it was my old company, then it was probably Office 2000 that we were using. By the time I left, there were still only a few using Office 2003.

[GallComp]

I don't smoke or drug use in any way - nor am I big on getting drunk. The program the lady uses saves in .wps - which is microsoft works. It has been so unreadable by everything other than itself that even Microsoft had to finally give in some. As I said to start, she wrote letter, ended up with a Microsoft system reload only to discover she could not read the letter - the reason is one, someone wants to be paid for you to read a document, and it is the only reason.


You and the lady fail to understand that Windows and Works are two different products. Some (no all) vendors include Works on their systems, but that doesn't meant that it will be included if you reinstall your system. Of course Microsoft wants to get paid for you to read a document created with their software, they are a company, and sell their products... That is called capitalism...

[troyatlarge]

Clearly I am unable to communicate a pretty simple idea - I'll make this the last attempt.

Works is Microsoft's cheaper version of something like Office, but with far fewer features. When one reloads Windows, which is an operating system, you can not read documents written in word.

Word processing is fundamental to modern computing and communication in a world of modern computers. An operating system which can not even read its own basic word documents is therefore fundamentally flawed in such a world.

The flaw rest upon one item, the effort to shovel money into the hands of an individual via peoples need to communicate in a modern world.

Note: I started this thread because I feel for all the people we get whose computers will not work via infections and thus honestly hope that Windows 7 is more secure (I even feel more this way when I see what the "Geek Squad" charges - dang!). For this, it was claimed, I was hear to bash Microsoft - I tried to make it clear that problem rest far more with the jerks writing the hacks than it does with Microsoft or the "idiots". Still insisting it is a Microsoft bash effort, I pointed to what I see as a fundamental problem in that system.

Clearly I have failed to communicate my ideas in a way anyone can follow (which has to be done before any actual discussion of the ideas can happen). lol - perhaps I should have been a brain surgeon!

In defiance of what I see as an error, installing OpenOffice on many computers with a note on why it was installed and how to uninstall it is now a regular feature at the shop - thus far people seem to like the idea that they will not, again, have to "pay" for a reasonable office suit. (We offer to remove it then and there as well - not a single taker thus far).

[JN4OldSchool]

Clearly I am unable to communicate a pretty simple idea - I'll make this the last attempt.

Thank God! No partner, I understand what you are saying, it just makes no sense. :)

Works is Microsoft's cheaper version of something like Office, but with far fewer features. When one reloads Windows, which is an operating system, you can not read documents written in word.

Did you mean to say "works" here? Anyway, I agree that when you install Windows you will not be able to read either word or works documents until...you install word or works. :rolleyes:

Word processing is fundamental to modern computing and communication in a world of modern computers. An operating system which can not even read its own basic word documents is therefore fundamentally flawed in such a world.

No operating system (except maybe OSX?) is tied to any word processor. You are making a flawed assumption. Windows is no more tied to word or works as Linux is to OO.o. There are distros that ship with abiword or koffice. If anything Windows "default" writing program is notepad. So this is where your argument goes south. In fact, it is not even an argument.

The flaw rest upon one item, the effort to shovel money into the hands of an individual via peoples need to communicate in a modern world.

Go move to Cuba. This has been explained. Microsoft is a "business." You can look up the definition yourself. They are out to make "money." You might think free everything is the way to go but you would be wrong. SOMEONE eventually pays the price. Linux is a unique example that has actually worked. But it has some serious flaws. The only way that it keeps moving forward is through the sale of support. It surely would not be held together with donations and without any corporate guidance it would have no leadership whatsoever. As it is it is all over the board. This is the main reason why it will NEVER compete on a real scale.

(note to admin. You do not know how HARD it was to not go political here!!! :) )

Note: I started this thread because I feel for all the people we get whose computers will not work via infections and thus honestly hope that Windows 7 is more secure (I even feel more this way when I see what the "Geek Squad" charges - dang!). For this, it was claimed, I was hear to bash Microsoft - I tried to make it clear that problem rest far more with the jerks writing the hacks than it does with Microsoft or the "idiots". Still insisting it is a Microsoft bash effort, I pointed to what I see as a fundamental problem in that system.

If you clear your mind and go back and read your posts, in this thread and in others, you will see that you claim some unfair things. I do not mind you bashing Microsoft as long as the reason is fair. This word processor thing is not fair. Neither is calling Vista insecure. Can Vista get a virus or a Trojan? Sure. So can Linux. But if you simply leave the default settings alone and you do not manually give permission to a wonkey program to install then you will stay clean. Is Windows perfect? Lord no. Nothing is.

Clearly I have failed to communicate my ideas in a way anyone can follow (which has to be done before any actual discussion of the ideas can happen). lol - perhaps I should have been a brain surgeon!

You just need to throttle back on the Linux evangelism thing is all. No one is telling you to not push Linux but you sound like many Christians I know. "I saved 8 people Saturday on door to door! Praise the Lord!" And I look around the church every Sunday and always ask, "Where are all these people?" Most of us have gone through this stage, we were introduced to linux and wanted to tell the world. "Hey, y'all are STUPID for paying for an OS, MS is evil, there is a better way! Linux CAN do it! Amen!" We were all there. But with experience comes a realization that people generally do not care and will not put the effort forth to run Linux.

Can they do it? Sure. Linux is actually EASIER to use than Windows. I have 6 kids that will support that argument. But people do not care. They want to come home from work and fire up the computer and play a game or write an email or twitter or facebook or bump, tingle, or burp someone...Whatever...The computer simply has to work, they dont care if it is Windows 95 or Linux or Amiga, it is just a tool. And you work in a computer shop, you see an endless stream of people dragging in with virus infected XP computers. This gives you a unique perspective. My father in law is a part of this segment of the population, he will not listen to anyone on how to secure his XP computer, he will not update he will not run anti-virus or anti-malware, he never defrags, in fact, he downloads games and stuffs them everywhere EXCEPT in program files because XP shoots up a warning to not mess with folders in program files. :rolleyes: He really is a dork. So every 6 months to a year his honeypot gets so infested with adware and Lord only knows what else that he takes it in to "the man" to have the OS reinstalled. $100 later his computer is like new and he is good for another 6 months. He does not know any better.

But anymore he is the exception. Most people have no problem running Windows. Windows 7 will prove secure. Invulnerable? No. But it will be secure enough. You really cant blame MS for XP. When it came out the internet was a cleaner place. How were they to know at the time that people were going to exploit the neat features they installed to allow the computer to network easily? Now, they ARE to blame that they dragged their feet so long and never FIXED the problem, they just continually patched the leaky boat with bubblegum. But by then everyone was running as admin and would not change this practice. We see this in Linux when these folks came over and want to run as root.

No Troy, I am not trying to fight you and I am not even saying you are wrong (about the general things anyway). What I am trying to show you is that you have a limited perspective. By all means, show people Linux. It really is a better OS and the more people who use it the better we are (I guess...I still debate this too, but it is what it is and Linux has changed and will keep changing. I understand those OLD gurus in the late 90's who did not like the changes back then. They felt people like me were going to ruin their private OS. Now I feel people like you will ruin MY private OS...). Time marches on and everything continues to change. MS wont be king forever. I do not believe Linux will take its place though. I think we are in for a major revolution in the next few years. Things are about to really move forward. I dont know what will come out of that, or if there even will be a desktop OS anymore. I guess we will all see. But I wouldnt get too hung up on this Windows thing now. Life is too short.

[Dan]

Okey, doke. We've now inserted both religion and politics into this mess.

And therefore ... the inevitable results.

Thread closed.