Make the madness stop!

[Draciron]

What exactly is the difference between FC6 and say FC11?

Aside from look and feel I honestly cannot find any non-cosmetic difference. There are some minor differences in default packages, probably some different kernel tweaks and such. Yes the versions of software are different. Instead of Firefox 1.0 FC11 if I remember correctly uses FF 3.5 though it might be up to 4.0 now.

My point is that FC6 and FC11 are essentially the same release. Forcing me to upgrade has really had me searching for a new standard distro after using Fedora almost since Fedora came into existence and Redhat before that. I know Fedora is supposed to be an experimental release but lets be honest. Upgrading versions of the base is not a new version. Cosmetic changes doth not make a new release.

A new release adds real palpable features and abilities. People WANT to upgrade too it to get those features and abilities. Instead the Fedora community forces upgrades by obsoleting perfectly good releases for no reason. I just don't understand how a new Glib version cannot be added to all Fedora releases. You have to do the same work upgrading various dependancies and if they'd been upraded over the years they'd be at the same starting point as the last Fedora release.

The last Fedora upgrade I did eagerly was to FC5. There were real changes between 3 and 5 which included lots of good support. Installing on a new machine I usually use the latest Fedora release to get drivers for the newer hardware.

Installing a new version is painful if you do not single purpose your machine. Takes me a good 2 to 4 weeks to configure a new install. To get all the software I like added to the machine, get all my tweaks in, configure all the thousands of packages I install. Whether it be setting up grip to configuring security to adding non-OSS support. Then there's tens of millions of files I have to restore to the machine. Music files I generate, chapters of books I'm writing, old humor files I might want, images, other people's music, development files and source files on stuff I'm currently working on or have done in the past, and so on. Literally I have 20 million or more files on the average on any machine I'm using that are purely user generated. Each time I upgrade I lose some. I find out my backups were not as complete as I thought they were. I realize I'd temporarily moved files one place then forgot to move them back, and so on.

The end of life is way too short on a Fedora version. It's making the whole distro unsuitable for me and many others. I cannot go over and install Fedora on my parent's machine because I really don't want to go back over there 6 months from now and add the latest version. I cannot recomend Fedora too new Linux users any more because by the time the get comfortable with a Fedora version it's end of lifed and they HAVE to upgrade. Sure maybe after a few years they'll WANT to upgrade frequently, however a year later? I might install FC11 today and a year from now will it still be supported? Most likely not. Any end of life on a version that's less than 5 years is too short. Less than 3 years makes it an unstable version useful only for those with a taste for the bleeding edge not for doing real work on a computer.

Linux is about doing stuff WITH your computer not TOO it. IT's about freeing people from the drudgery of maitence that has become part of every Windoze user's life. Think about how many hours of a windows user's life is lost staring at hourglasses and opening up applications? Lost defragging drives, running this and that scan. Linux is about doing it your way, including not messing with a system that works. Install it and except for patching it forget about it for years on end. Reboot when you upgrade the kernel maybe once or twice a year. Instead of endless upgrades for cosmetics Linux has until recently been about adding and tweaking your system.

Today with Fedora I feel like I'm running in place. I can't get anywhere. By the time I get a system how I like it, the version is outdated and I have to start all over again. I have had installs last me more than 5 years in the past. Got probably that much out of a FC3 install.

I just did a FC 11 install and see that FC12 is about too or is already out. A year from now will I have to go through this all over again?

I think we need to stand up and ask the fedora community to change it's end of life policy and keep support for at least 3 years on a version. 5 years would be preferable.

I'm also completely in the dark about what's been added too a single FC version that was not cosmetic since about FC5. Please I'm curious about waht FC12 honestly does that couldn't have been done with FC10 or even FC7. Yeah it looks different. I won't say improved, I hate the new look and feel, it has a vista imitation look and feel too it. Vista is an abysmal failure while Fedora has long been a huge success. WIndows should be copying Fedora not the other way around. There are lots of things that COULD be added.

Good FOSS support for all the gadgets like Ipods and cell phones. The hodgepodge of apps out there usually have limited support and many apps have none. Try finding help importing most phones address books either USB or Bluetooth. It'll make your brain hurt sorting through the many apps for your specific devices and finding one that works at all. Yet these are essential every day parts of most people's lives. Lack of support for these dievices is almost like not supporting DVD writers today.

It almost seems like Linux developers hate musicians. They taunt us with cool looking apps that nobody can get running because JACK audio doesn't run and all audio recording and editing software aside from audacity need JACK to work. The simple solution is audio libs to replace JACK and allow people to use any of the standard audio systems. The other part of the solution is drivers for breakout boxes and mixers. Do that and the musicians community will quickly move to Linux.

Computer resource sharing. Eating up all your machine's resources? Got a friend halfway across the world who's asleep and has lots of spare CPU cycles? Wouldn't it be cool to set up a network of friends and a secure VPN between them that allowed you to share system resources. Whether your cramming for test together and want to share a doc through Google office or Open Office or you are combining as a team to beat an encryption challenge or musicians doing a virtual jam session together, the future will include cloud computing. M$ of course has it all wrong but that doesn't mean Fedora cannot show people how it SHOULD be done and once again show M$ for the cheap knock off visionless jokes they are.

Specialized distros. For law offices for example, for musicians, for industrial uses, etc. There are a 1000 diffferent spins that can be done based off the same ground work. Lots of people like me who'll happily do th ground work and testing for those spins.

Desktop advancements. Lets face it, KDE ushered in the last major desktop advancement back with KDE 1.0 that I can think of. Things are moved around a bunch since then but computers with any OS are not any easier to use. Not with Macs, not with Windows, not with Linux no matter what desktop you use. There are quite a few things that can be done to improve desktops. There are many groups out there who've worked out ideas, even tried a few. I could write an entire article on the subject. In the end we are all suckers for a good desktop environment. Even in Linux you see so many people using Fedora and Ubuntu and Suse over more server oriented distros just because they like the look and feel of that distro. Like it's ease of use.

A gaming engine. The one and only thing holding up millions of computer users from switching to Linux is "all the cool games run on windozws only". The reason is simple, the Microsoft graphics lib and Microsoft having bought up most of the games companies. A really good graphics engine would enable all sorts of apps to be developed or ported to Linux with ease. Whether it be CAD packaes or games. Red Hat will reap exponentially more than it spent developing a first class graphics engine. Remember what people use at home they use at work. Convert the sysadmins to Linux at home and Linux will find it's way into even Microsoft strongholds. Places that will happily buy RHE.

A replacement for Flash. Flash has become a nightmare. Keeping up with it is bad enough. It is a system hog even if you can keep up with it and the vulnerabilities that come with Flash just keep rolling in. Flash is one of the bigest non-FOSS formats left. The slow death of the M$ .doc format leaves mp3s and flash as the lone standard bearers. .Ogs will eventually supplant MP3s I feel but with Flash there's no alternate really. So we must endure Flash.

How about teaming with the GUttenberg project and creating a FOSS reader/lib manager as well as a hosting site that can feed those books to various readers like Amazons?

Anyway those are just ones I came up with in 5 minutes. Lots more out there that can be done. If your going to call it a new release lets have something really new to go with it eh. Something compelling that makes the pain of upgrading worth it.

[forkbomb]

What exactly is the difference between FC6 and say FC11?

Well actually, really, the difference is the use of "Core" in the name. They dropped "Core" as part of the name years ago. :p (Actually FC6 was the last to be "Fedora Core" as far as I remember.)

[Draciron]

Well actually, really, the difference is the use of "Core" in the name. They dropped "Core" as part of the name years ago. :p (Actually FC6 was the last to be "Fedora Core" as far as I remember.)

LOL... True, you got me there. So there is one non-cosmetic but irrelivent difference :)

[forkbomb]

LOL... True, you got me there. So there is one non-cosmetic but irrelivent difference :)

Yeah, I know it's irrelevant. I just couldn't resist. :)

[bob]

(Moved to Rants, Reviews & Things That Make You Scream)

You're speaking to the users, not the devs here. If you seriously want to make an impact, click on the Fedora Project Jump/Communicate and give 'em "what for".

One thing to consider here is that Fedora was set up to be a fast-release, testing distro and we DID have 'long-term' support in the beginning but it was dropped because it wasn't being used. That's the members who didn't care about it. Naturally, if you liked an older version and it was working for you and you had no need of new packages, what's to stop you from using it? When I set up a distro for a friend/family, I make sure their needs are met, however I don't tell them about updating. Not much need unless they buy new equipment. No updates, no breakage.

[RahulSundaram]

Hi,

Fedora Core 6 and Fedora 11 are extremely different releases. I am surprised anyone would consider them even close enough for comparison. I recommend going through

http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features

Also remember that majority of software packages included in Fedora is maintained by volunteers. Red Hat sponsors many upstream developers and a few full time employees working on Fedora but this is primary a community distribution.

@bob, Fedora never had "long term" support unless you are referring to "Fedora Legacy" but that was a separate project and died soon.

[scottro]

With due respect to the original poster's aggravation, it's sort of the way it is. Fedora's mission statement isn't about long term support, for better or worse.

As for flash, ipods, and so on---it's kind of like the old song, Where have all the flowers gone. For those who don't know it, the flowers are picked by young girls, the girls go to young men, the young men become soldiers, the soldiers go to their graves, the graves go to the flowers, and back to where are the flowrs, the young girls picked them.

What should work out of the box. Networking, printers, sound, video. (Just for example, we could all add others.) Why don't they all work out of the box, the vendors don't give Linux support, why don't they give Linux support, there isn't enough of a user base, why isn't there enough of a user base, too many things don't work out of the box, what should work out of the box....

In the interim, developers work very hard trying to keep up, and make it worthwhile.

As for flash, shucks, to me, dinosaur that I am, that ranks up with html email as one of the worst things that ever happened to the Internet, vulnerable bloat adding junk (he says, after playing an online flash game), but customers like it, so web developers give it to them, and nowadays, it's almost impossible to avoid.

[bob]

Rahul, yes that's what I'm referring to (Fedora Legacy Project) which attempted to provide long-term support but died from a lack of interest; at least according to the ending statement. http://www.fedoralegacy.org/

[stevea]

More madness for me !
If you want a slowly changing, stable distro Fedora is clearly the WRONG choice.

[woelfman10]

If you don't need the latest and greatest, why not go with CentOS. You get the Red Hat package base with the long-term support.

[JN4OldSchool]

I aint reading that OP until I get some more coffee in me. :rolleyes:

okay, I peeked...

1. Linux (in general) is about many small changes at a rapid pace. Things evolve quickly. As Rahul mentions there is SO MUCH underlying difference between FC6 and F11 I wouldnt know where to start. You ARE looking at cosmetic differences, but what you do not see is the whole underlying structure has been changed.

2. You CAN upgrade instead of doing a clean install. I do not suggest this because some of the MAJOR underlying structure that you dont see, such as the move from ext3 to ext4, will cause some problems. Linux is a bunch of small modular parts that work together. Change one and everything else is affected.

3. I love you guys who always claim you know what people want! No you dont! People want Fedora like it is, that is why there are millions of users. Of course someone will always be unhappy, hey, honestly, I have become unhappy with Fedora and have moved on. But this doesnt make Fedora wrong and there are millions that are quite happy with it. If you do not like Fedora go try debian, CentOS, Mint, Arch...whatever. That is the beauty of Linux.

4. It sould take you 2-3 hours to tweak a clean install...TOPS! You are doing things wrong. Start out by creating a data partition. Your personal files should not need restored, just isolate them from the OS. The OS is expendable! Then there are scripts that allow you to reinstall everything you need with one click. You could even write something simple yourself; "yum install a,b,c,d,e,f..." Give me a break! If you have an app with specialized settings that are complicated to reproduce then just drag the .config file from /home to /data and drag it back in the new install. Presto, settings in place. It is YOU my friend, you are using Linux now, stop thinking with a Windows mentality. YOU can do whatever you like. That is the beauty of Linux.

5. Linux is about doing stuff with your computer. Fedora, because of its nature, is quite often about doing stuff TO your computer. Take it or leave it! So dont recommend Fedora to your mom or your friends! Try another distro! Choice! That is the beauty of Linux.

6. My Vista install is maintainance free! Just thought I would throw that in there. It sounds like you have not used Windows since Win. 95. However, since you have a bad habit of applying your own incompetence to everyone else I can say that I do understand...

Boy, you do go on dont you...

7. You can create those specialized spins yourself! Try Revisor in Fedora, other distros now have theri own versions too. It is simple to create a custom spin. Why not put your money where your mouth is? Want to know what I have found? Probably not, but I am going to tell you anyway! Use Arch Linux. You will cry and whine about the complicated install, but what you are doing is building your own custom spin from the ground up. If you have a problem with what Fedora gives you then why not just create your own perfect version of Linux? That is the beauty of Linux.

I am not trying to blast you here, you do have some good ideas in your post though you also exaggerate a bit also. The thing is it is easy to crack the whip, but what are YOU doing to help? This is one of the reasons why Linux will never compete with MS. There is no direction, no concerted effort to drive the ship in one direction. Instead everyone has their own ideas and they have the freedom to act on them. It is survival of the fittest. The very fact that Fedora exists contradicts your claim that it is not what people want. Maybe you do not know what people want? You spent a long time on that post, I fear it was a wasted effort. Just look elsewhere, there is bound to be a distro that better suites you. For me Arch and Mint are what currently fit the bill. That takes nothing away from Fedora, it just is not right for me at this time. I am okay with that. Really. That is the beauty of Linux. :)

[Dan]

OK. I'll let the cat out of the bag here. Guys ... before you slam Draciron around too much more, it might be a good plan to have a glance at his resume, and then also wander back through our own forum. Particularly the complaints threads.

That being said, note that I am not necessarily a proponent of following the upgrade/reinstall tail chase myself. Most of you know I was still on FC6 this time last year, and was quite content with it until it developed the rather irritating habit of crashing and trashing my data. (As you might expect, this turned out to be an issue of operator headspace and failing hardware. <..:rolleyes:..> )

And that being said ... I'd have to say F10~11 is light-years ahead of FC6 in such nifty things as hardware support. (Printers/scanners, webcams, wireless, digital cameras, etc.)

However ... the whole root GUI login lock-out thing left me a little tweaked out of shape, too. So did the anti-zapping shenanigans. But to the best of my knowledge, both of those were upstream stupidities.

[JN4OldSchool]

OK. I'll let the cat out of the bag here. Guys ... before you slam Draciron around too much more, it might be a good plan to have a glance at his resume, and then also wander back through our own forum. Particularly the complaints threads.

That being said, note that I am not necessarily a proponent of following the upgrade/reinstall tail chase myself. Most of you know I was still on FC6 this time last year, and was quite content with it until it developed the rather irritating habit of crashing and trashing my data. (As you might expect, this turned out to be an issue of operator headspace and failing hardware. <..:rolleyes:..> )

And that being said ... I'd have to say F10~11 is light-years ahead of FC6 in such nifty things as hardware support. (Printers/scanners, webcams, wireless, digital cameras, etc.)

However ... the whole root GUI login lock-out thing left me a little tweaked out of shape, too. So did the anti-zapping shenanigans. But to the best of my knowledge, both of those were upstream stupidities.

Ah yes! Now I remember:

http://forums.fedoraforum.org/showpost.php?p=1232869&postcount=13

Still up to his old tricks I see. For having his hand in the game he continues to be very misinformed about life in general.

edit: And that said, Dan, you of all people know EXACTLY where I stand. The things you mention are just the tip of the iceburg. So much so that it drove me away. But the theme here is how you go about the argument, not the argument itself. I have a feeling our friend here is swimming upstream against a very powerful current.

[forkbomb]

However ... the whole root GUI login lock-out thing left me a little tweaked out of shape, too. So did the anti-zapping shenanigans. But to the best of my knowledge, both of those were upstream stupidities.

I recall hearing about the no-root-login stuff, but what are the "anti-zapping" shenanigans you refer to? Care to bring a defector up to speed?

[William Haller]

If you're going to reinstall from scratch, put your own personal stuff on a separate partition as JN4OldSchool directed.

Personally, I have installed Fedora fresh on only new boxes after shrinking the Vista partition down to a tiny fraction of its former glory (in case some warranty droid can't function if the hardware breaks unless I can read him some magic number from some Microsoft dialog box or at least prove it won't boot to Vista either). All my other Fedora installs have been upgraded since Fedora 1 (although only one such box is still in commission - two which went from F1 through F10 were laid to rest this year). The last few upgrades have been performed while the systems were live - serving web pages, handling mail, DNS, IM, etcetera.

With the upgrade path, you can monitor the forums to see when the initial hardware problems are worked out and pull in the latest updates when you do the upgrade. I would never suggest skipping releases if you choose the upgrade path. Always upgrade one step at a time, and it basically just works. You also don't have to install any custom software that isn't on the DVD. It is occasionally required to remove some custom widget in order to get the upgrade to work, but it is much easier to drop one or two packages and then install them when done than it is to install every package that isn't on the distribution media.

[Dan]

I recall hearing about the no-root-login stuff, but what are the "anti-zapping" shenanigans you refer to? Care to bring a defector up to speed?

Unless you make a specific change to your xorg.conf file, [ctrl]+[alt]+[bckspc] no longer works to crowbar a misbehaving X session into submission.

[woelfman10]

I recall hearing about the no-root-login stuff, but what are the "anti-zapping" shenanigans you refer to? Care to bring a defector up to speed?

The anti-zapping is in reference to ctrl-alt-backspace to kill the xserver. It was disabled upstream and one had to configure it to enable ctrl-alt-backspace.

[forkbomb]

Sheesh. That is cancer. Being able to smite X into oblivion has always been oddly calming to me. :p

[JN4OldSchool]

The anti-zapping is in reference to ctrl-alt-backspace to kill the xserver. It was disabled upstream and one had to configure it to enable ctrl-alt-backspace.

That one is a true upstream decision. Mint is toying with the idea of putting it back, I hope they do. I think Fedora should it is a necessary feature.

As far as root GUI login it is ironic that Fedora is the only distro (that I know of) that prevents this. Maybe everyone else is still using the old GDM? The whole Gnomecentric thing got old though, forget Gnome.

Didnt even mention the default LVM thing. Which is probably part of why the OP does not have a separate /data...

But hey, no distro is perfect. It still remains the user's choice to use it. As I say take it or leave it. I am looking forward to installing F12 just to play with it.

[troyatlarge]

From the original poster:

"Linux is about doing stuff WITH your computer not TOO it."

I think your quite mistaken about that. Linux, the kernel, as i see it, is mainly about running equipment in a very efficient way, augmented to some degree by security and other considerations. On the philosophical side, however, it seems to me the idea is about "freedom" in a very real meaning of the term. When you say "Linux is about doing stuff WITH your computer not TOO it", you are speaking of a restriction which limits freedom.

People can derive different meaning from the same word group, so lets clarify. fedora, as I understand it, is something of a test bed - a place to try out software in a form which exposes the effort to the use and views and effort of a rather impressive body of people - thus making it something of a super lab. The ideas of the dream, given substance by programmers, is exposed to the fires of worthiness in the Fedora spearhead through the masses. In so doing, the choppiness of a non-well navigated sea is often smoothed into clear sailing. This appears to me to be done via people choosing to do and be part of exactly such an effort - for the not to savvy computer-tard like me all the way up to the starts of Fedora (both hidden and public). Linux, in terms of the philosophy which goes with it, is NOT about suppressing such an effort, but indeed about saying "right on" if this is what some people choose to place this kernel in service of.

[Draciron]

Couldn't pass yours without responding.

I aint reading that OP until I get some more coffee in me. :rolleyes:
1. Linux (in general) is about many small changes at a rapid pace. Things evolve quickly. As Rahul {snip]been changed.


Changes plucked from F9 notes.

Jigdo affects who besides testers and developers?

A newer version of Gnome or KDE is time consuming to test yes. It can also change packaes, sometimes significantly. That might be a substantial change but most versions of Gnome or KDE really don't mean much to the end user. They add a feature here or there, change things around a little but often you can't tell the difference.

Network manager improvents are not going to be back ported? If not how is this a big deal in terms of a release? Yes they are an improvement. Like I said I don't think the Fedora crew is just sitting around doing nothin. They work hard at what they do. This is however uttlerly meaningless in terms of a release.

Open office has been part of Fedora since at last fc2. I'm thinking it was in FC2 also. I never tried FC1. So in F9 this not only made the release notes but the highlights section.

Package kit affects what about %5 of the user base?

Here we go, perl 5, uh wait isn't Perl 5 in FC 6.?

Upstart is the kind of thing that belongs in a release note as it has a noticable impact.

I am not demeaning the work of Fedora's developers. Takes a great deal of time and effort to do things like improving boot up time. It however is not a major improvement either. Especially since lots of Linux users like myself ight reboot twice a year.


2. You CAN upgrade instead of doing a clean install. I do not suggest this because some of the MAJOR underlying structure that you dont see, such as the move from ext3 to ext4, will cause some problems. Linux is a bunch of small modular parts that work together. Change one and everything else is affected.


No, the file system is encapsulated. So very little has changed. A new module compiled into the kernel. A few changes to the installation script, adding new versions of disk druid, gtparted, fdisk, qtparted that support ext4, also a apps like df have to be able to detect and correctly report ext4. Not that much changes actually. The end user doesn't notice it at all. Much of the work is external to the Fedora project. qtparted for example is maintained by other people.

No you cannot unless your a very simple user who installs only base packages.The upgrade function creates dependency hell very quickly.


3. I love you guys who always claim you know what people want! No you dont! People want Fedora like it is, that is why there are millions of users. Of course someone will always be unhappy, hey, honestly, I have become unhappy with Fedora and have moved on. But this doesnt make Fedora wrong and there are millions that are quite happy with it. If you do not like Fedora go try debian, CentOS, Mint, Arch...whatever. That is the beauty of Linux.


I love you guys who accept every thing and tuck your tails instead of speaking up for what you want. Nnever speak your mind you can be ASSURED the changes you want never happen. If only 1 thing in 5 changed then that is a %20 improvement is it not? An improvement that would have never happened if nobody said anything.

Actually I do take a concensus of people and speak for them. Not all of the changes I've spoken about impact me specificially. They are taken from polls, people I've helped over the years, from forum posts I've read, from other Linux, Mac and Windoze users and their impressions of Linux.


4. It sould take you 2-3 hours to tweak a clean install...TOPS! You are doing things wrong. Start out by creating a data partition. Your personal files should not need restored, just isolate them from the OS. The OS is expendable! Then there are scripts that allow you to reinstall everything you need with one click. You could even write something simple yourself; "yum install a,b,c,d,e,f..." Give me a break! If you have an app with specialized settings that are complicated to reproduce then just drag the .config file from /home to /data and drag it back in the new install. Presto, settings in place. It is YOU my friend, you are using Linux now, stop thinking with a Windows mentality. YOU can do whatever you like. That is the beauty of Linux.


I have long been an advocate of the /data partition and have pushed in the past to make it part of the default partitioning. On that we agree. It also saves me many hours.

I install 1000s of packaes. I am a musician, a writer, I install the development environments, I play games, I am involved in projects of all sorts from family geneology to FOSS stuff. The default apps are cumbersome, half functional and time consuming. So I can expend a few hours changing mime ttypes, editing menus, and save hours every week long term. Essentially I gain entire days in my life to use on other stuff by customizing my machine like I do. Sure it only takes you 20 seconds longer to use this app that's already provided opposed to another, but if you do it 200 times a week that starts to add up pretty quick. That's 12 minutes more a week to spend with your kids, write emails, long posts like this one LOL.

So I change mime types. Change out apps. For example I have also found the .txt ext to be worthless. I have litterally millions of files I've generated over the years. Either my writing or others. So instead of something.txt and something2.txt I have something.lyr which means it's lyrics for the song something while something.phl is a philosophical ramble about something. Makes it easier to sort, find work with files. A .php and a .bb file may both be text files, but I want different apps handlilng them in different situations. I don't want to open up an IDE to view a .php file in Krursader.I just want to view it, THEN maybe open it in an IDE.


6. My Vista install is maintainance free! Just thought I would throw that in there. It sounds like you have not used Windows since Win. 95. However, since you have a bad habit of applying your own incompetence to everyone else I can say that I do understand...


Actually at home I went strait from WFWG too NT. to Linux, Win95 was useless .. I used it at work. I have supported small and medium networks using server 2000, NT 3.51 & 4.0 , Win 2000, at a time was a bit of an expert in SQL Server 6.5 and M$ desperately wanted some code I wrote for it's app farm. I 'm even an MCP not that it means much. If I did what the MCP tests wanted in the real world the network would have been in instant ruins, apps I wrote in VB would have no err checking and SQL Server would be in constant deadlock. I have worked extensively XP . I have never even seen Vista running on a PC in RL. I know some people run it, mostly not by choice :)

So you never run virus scans, malware scans, defrag, etc?


7. You can create those specialized spins yourself! Try Revisor in Fedora, other distros now have theri own versions too. It is simple to create a custom spin. Why not put your money where your mouth is? Want to know what I have found? Probably not, but I am going to tell you anyway! Use Arch Linux. You will cry and whine about the complicated install, but what you are doing is building your own custom spin from the ground up. If you have a problem with what Fedora gives you then why not just create your own
erfect version of Linux? That is the beauty of Linux.


No not the complexity, the time consumption. The installs are VERY simple today. Easier than any other OS I feel. I am not new to Linux. I was running it way back when installs actually did require strong technical skills. My complaint is once it works I want to use it for years not months.

[JN4OldSchool]

Dude, you sure contradict yourself a LOT!

Really, the only things you said that are even worth mentioning are the fact that some of us just accept things instead of trying to change them and that you do not know anyone that runs Vista by choice.

First point, why change what works? I didnt accept it, I moved to Arch which better suites my needs. Why try to change one distro when another is already a perfect fit? Besides, this may come as a complete shock to you, but Fedora is NOT listening! Really, they may tickle your ear a bit, but they do NOT care what you or I think. :)

I run Vista by choice. So do many people I know. So now we can get into a "do too," "do not" argument with neither one of us able to support our claim. No thanks, means little to nothing to me.

No I do not run virus scans, malware scans, defrags, updates or anything. Everything is automatic. The only additional program I run is AVG free. In well over a year and a half, on two separate installs, I have not encountered a single problem. That is huge in my book, that points to one solid, secure OS. I have put no time and effort into Vista in all this time. Wish I could say the same about Linux, though I do admit that most of my tinkering is my fault. If I would install an old, tired, static distro like debian or centos I am sure it would prove just as stable and longterm as Vista. See, I have no prejudices against any OS or distro, I understand that most problems are caused by user ignorance.

Good luck on the crusade, though I am having a hard time figuring out just what you are after.

[scottro]

I'm a bit confused by where this one is going. One can file bug reports, admittedly a pain in the neck, and sometimes being ignored or called not a bug, as well as do RFE's, (Request for Enhancement).
As for the root login, even Alan Cox didn't want that one to go in, and they didn't listen to him.

I'm not sure if you mean you will continue to campaign against the gradual Window-ing, to coin a phrase, of Fedora. It seems as if it is a losing battle, in all the desktop distributions.

As I'm sure you know, talking about it on these forums is only good for venting. One can join developer mailing lists, file bug reports, and other, rather time-consuming things, often to find that it's just not going to be that way.

What I do see is that many who aren't tied to Fedora/RH by work needs simply go to something like Arch or the BSDs. However, the number of Linux users grows all the time, and the vast majority, it seems, prefer the Windows way.

[Dan]

Dan's summary of the laws of rude computer truths:

1: Linux IS a geek's distro. Its ranks of developers and users are populated by geeks. That's why nobody else has heard of it yet.
2: Linux geeks like it that way. It is exclusive and "requires brains to use." One cannot snort in self-righteous superior contempt when it's so easy your grandmother could do it. (Which, of course, blindly fails to take into account that your grandmother was and is a pretty sharp lady whom endured and accomplished things her snot-nosed grandchildren can only imagine ... or maybe read about ... if they still knew how to operate a hardbound text book. <..:rolleyes:..> ) "Uhm, yeah grandma ... but ... where do you plug it in? Is it wireless? Which protocol?"
3: With a few very notable and accomplished exceptions, Linux desktop distros are community developed FOSS systems. Said communities are populated by geeks. Windows desktop is a commercial system. Two different cultures, two different motives. Duh!
4: Non-geeks do not give two hoots in a hot place about servers -- provided they work when and as expected.
5: Power users, of ANY operating system, tend to be an insufferably arrogant lot.
6: Windows fights dirty. So does Mac. And so does Linux.
7: Non-geeks don't care about the elegance of the underlying code. They just want the damn thing to work -- consistently
8: Any given feature in any given Linux distro, will be complained about if it is not there, and will be summarily condemned if it is ... by geeks. Frequently in the same breath.
9: In the real world, ladies and gentlemen, there are special doctors and twelve step programs available to treat things like this.


<..:p..>

[scottro]

You need 3 more steps then. :D

Dan, we ought make that one a sticky somewhere.

[DavidMcCann]

As I understand it, there are good reasons for a fast turnover — Fedora isn't unique in its 6-month cycle.

Many home users are likely to have the latest videocard, or a new printer (because the last one has expired the day after the guarantee did). Upgrading, rather than re-installing, is more likely to work smoothly if no software is jumping a couple of versions.

If you think about it, small changes frequently made are natural for open-source software. That's how software is revised, if you don't want to spend forever debugging. Microsoft and other commercial programmers have to save up their alterations until a new release will look really different, or who'd buy it?

That said, I hate the 6-month cycle, and have generally skipped the odd version, starting when I went from 1 to 3. When CentOS 6 comes out next spring, I'll be off: no need to change again for 4 years :)

[Dan]

Want the real reasons?

Dashboard fever and the geek's version of adrenaline addiction. <..:eek:..>




<..:p..>

[forkbomb]

Suddenly this thread has way too much reading material. :confused:

[Dan]

Meh. Several writers are involved. You thought there wasn't going to be vast columns of grey text with little or no eye candy? <..:eek:..>


<..:p..>

[forkbomb]

I was expecting some illustrations, to be honest. :)

[dmyersturnbull]

Response to the OP:


I think we need to stand up and ask the fedora community to change it's end of life policy and keep support for at least 3 years on a version. 5 years would be preferable.


You're certainly welcome to suggest this to the Fedora community, but your efforts would be better spent on a distro that emphasizes innovation less. And while I understand your struggles, the truth is that I and probably many other Fedora users like the short release cycles. I look forward to release dates because I often need the new features and because (I'll admit) I enjoy trying the new features. Six months is perfect for me. If you don't like the short release cycles, either switch distros or try to influence the Fedora developers, but I wouldn't expect extraordinary support from the Fedora community.

I think your assertions that Fedora has change little are invalid. Much (if not most) of the Fedora developers' efforts go toward (often through intermediate, non-visible changes) improving Linux's foremost deficiency: hardware support. I hate needig to base my hardware purchases on driver support. And sometimes users are just unlucky. I had serious audio problems on my Dell Studio laptop with Fedora 9 and Fedora 10. Fedora 11 solved those problems. Look at the upcoming features: most of them regard hardware support.

I use too many programs for too many purposes: chemistry, software development, mathematical analysis, databases, web development, music composition. Sometimes installs of new Fedora releases take time. If you always separate your / and /home partitions, the settings for your programs should persist. Also, I have a space-delimited text file generated from "rpm -qa" of every program I use; I simply feed that to Yum on fresh installs.

So I'm sorry that Fedora isn't paying sufficient attention to your needs. The Fedora devs probably won't agree to altering the release cycle. But make your case known, particularly your troubles with JACK. Perhaps they'll mitigate or solve those issues.

—Douglas

[forkbomb]

I think your assertions that Fedora has change little are invalid. Much (if not most) of the Fedora developers' efforts go toward (often through intermediate, non-visible changes) improving Linux's foremost deficiency: hardware support. I hate needig to base my hardware purchases on driver support.

Ironically, there's not much the Fedora devs can do about that in any case. That's mostly an issue having to do with either the kernel (which the Fedora devs have no control over without also joining the kernel dev team) or the vendors of the hardware itself.


As for 3-5 years support, that's typically an enterprise-level demand. And in the enterprise, if you need support, the way to achieve it is to pony up for support contracts, not to "stand up" to the devs of a (bleeding edge) distro (with a reputation for sometimes being unstable) that you don't pay a dime for.

[zackf]

MADNESS?!?! THIS IS FEDOOORRRRRA! *kicks Draciron off ledge*

Sorry guys, I couldn't resist.

[pete_1967]

The OP's post reminds me of people who buy a house next to an airport and then start to complain about the noise and pollution from the aeroplanes and demand the airport to be closed.

You want long term support, use distro that offers it (Ubuntu LTS, SuSE EL, RHEL or Debian that is rolling release for example), don't install distro that pushes the limits and has short support life and start whining about it.

[JN4OldSchool]

Make the madness stop!


Sure!

http://www.linuxmint.com/download_lts.php

[Dan]

C'mon, Sean. Be fair.

http://www.centos.org/
http://www.redhat.com/

The last, of course being the wisest, but the least chosen. <..:rolleyes:..>

[JN4OldSchool]

C'mon, Sean. Be fair.

http://www.centos.org/
http://www.redhat.com/

The last, of course being the wisest, but the least chosen. <..:rolleyes:..>

Works for me. Why keep ragging on Fords simply because you dont like blue ovals tacked on your car when you have 20 other different dealers right down the street.

[Hlingler]

To me, the Fedora Release Cycle is best considered non-negotiable, as are a couple other Project policies. Discussion of these points is fruitless.

The OP had a few other worthwhile points for discussion that unfortunately seem to have been eclipsed by this one item. Too bad.

V

[Demz]

C'mon, Sean. Be fair.

http://www.centos.org/
http://www.redhat.com/

The last, of course being the wisest, but the least chosen. <..:rolleyes:..>

stop being a Puppy Dan :rolleyes:

[scottro]

No, puppy isn't really long term. :D:D
(Sorry Greg, couldn't resist--it was such a setup line.)

[JN4OldSchool]

One positive thing I can say about the OP, at least he picked a cool title for the thread. I get a huge kick out of it every time I see it in the top ten box.

"Make the madness stop!"

Lol, that is good...

[Demz]

next we'll have a thread saying make the madness begin hold on, it begun with Fedora core 1 didnt it? :D

[JN4OldSchool]

Lol, make the madness begin, download your copy of Fedora today!

[Demz]

lol .. now thats a good slogan for Fedora project website :D

[Dan]

Hmmm.

More like, "We break it, you've bought it! But you can keep the pieces."

[tashirosgt]

One way to have an organized and efficient home is to conscientiously organize and clean things up. You should also do frequent maintenance and occasional remodelling. Another way to accomplish these goals is to have a house fire every few years so that you have to move. This is the Fedora approach.

I'm slowly migrating from my FC8 32 bit installation to a FC11 64 bit machine. The only good way to migrate is to have three or four computers and rotate the distros among them. On the tail end of the rotation, I have a machine on FC6. I wonder if I've gotten all the files that I need off of it.

[geoff123]

what do you expect - it is the americanization of linux. americans gotta have control of things. your supposed to be scared if you don't have the latest (of everything).

you can't automatically log in as root/su, "see your system administrator", no reasonable control of startx, no virtual screen. the mighty system they loath - that's what they are trying to turn linux into ie. outta the box, just push the go button and trust us we know what you need/want.

[Dan]

geoff123:

As I'm sure you've already gleaned, politics, country bashing etc. is a no-no. If you want to indulge in that kind of stuff, we have a place specifically for it called social groups. However, before getting too carried away there, you might want to read both the site guidelines and the guidelines for the social groups.

[scottro]

@geoff (speaking as fellow user, not staff member), I don't think it's America, so we can easily leave politics out of it. I think it's simply the way Linux is going. You'll find many of we old timers grousing about it, blaming Ubuntu, blaming Windows, or blaming Dan. (I just threw that one in.) :)

From an advocacy standpoint, it may be a good thing, as it smooths out and becomes as easy, or easier, than installing Windows or Stefan's Beloved OS X. (Is he on this thread?). We old timers, or even newer users who like Unix, find it frustrating as it becomes harder and harder to customize.

There are still distributions around (Arch, Gentoo, LFS of course, Slackware), that leave it all to the user. With Fedora, it's actually still relatively easy, install from CD 1 (not the live CD), uncheck everything, including base, then customize at will. I think one can do the same with Ubuntu by using their alternate CD, and no doubt, with many other distributions.

I'd say, to coin a phrase, you have to choose to have choice. :) Hrrm, I like that.

Yes, it is going the other way, but the very fact that it becomes slightly more difficult to regain control of your system might even be a good, if annoying thing--it means that you have to have some knowledge to do it.

(I go back and forth with this, sometimes, ranting against the gradual lessening of choice, sometimes thinking, judging from how much easier it's become for newcomers, that it's a good thing.) <shrug>

So, all in all, I'd say it's worldwide--the whole instant gratification thing, especially with the Internet often being able to grant said Instant Gratification. :D

[Dan]

...

So, all in all, I'd say it's worldwide--the whole instant gratification thing, especially with the Internet often being able to grant said Instant Gratification. :D
See: Short Run Hedonism (http://www.d.umn.edu/cla/faculty/jhamlin/2311/CohenMillerAgnew.html)

Some spooky parallels there, huh?

[scottro]

Ah well. Human nature never changes. There are some complaints about "kids today" that sound as if our parents said them, and they turn out to be written by Aristotle.

[Draciron]

Has kicked off a lively discussion LOL.

My point still stands. You can deliver the driver updates in kernel upgrades. The repositories just upgrade the various versions like they do anyway but for longer.

There really isn't s a distro with long term support any more. Ubutunu your lucky to get 2 yrs out of an install.

From an advocacy standpoint the LAST thing we want to do is high turn over. There are STILL people using Win 95 even today. Not many but you still see a few. While Linux is mostly easier to install than windows. I feel that the early FC installs were much easier than any windows install I've done but have been actually going the opposite way and getting less user friendly over the last several versions of FC, it is still not a horrible install but also not something Granny Jones is going to have the courage to try.

Lots of non-geeks in the Linux world today. That's causing a split in the Linux community. Old school still want the elitist high geek aura of Linux. Advocates want to see people using Linux for practical purposes. The logical midground is if you want the geek badge use a raw distro like plain Debian which is pretty much a do it yourself kind of thing. Thus you earn your geek badge but enjoy support from places like youtube which uses a format that Linux users can get at without having to set up an emulator just to watch a flash vid. You can go to a website like CNN and not be told we don't support Linux and buy Linux pre-installed on machines. Hardware manufacturers will actually release specs even sometimes drivers for Linux. That is the future if we capture a large enough portion of the desktop user. We'll get to play the latest greatest games without having to own a windoze box to do so. All the negatives of using Linux go away. You can put your brother/sister/parents/non-techie friends on a Linux distro, fix any probs remotely and not spend hours helping them with an OS (windoze) you don't even run. An OS that should have been taken out and shot many years ago.

Many of these machines get tucked away and or forgotten. An Linux install which hasn't been patched in a couple years is a hazard to the net. Linux comes with so many useful tools and it's more efficient design make it the ideal platform to launch other attacks. Throw in a few million unpatched Linux boxes and the hacking potential and potential bandwidth usage from these attacks becomes something that impacts us all. Simple fact is lots of installs use auto patching. When the auto patching fails because it's been end of lifed the end user will be unaware they are vulnerable. There are millions of such windoze machines. As Linux gains popularity there will soon be millions of those as well.

Many such machines will be programmer A working at company X sets up an FTP server or a web server or file server. Anything outward facing. They leave the company a year later. Nobody takes over the machine. As long as it works folks just leave it alone. I've been called in to fix a few such machines already and see Linux servers sprouting everywhere. Windoze admins get a Linux server up but never maintain it. Eventually the distro is end of lifed. They don't use RHE or CentOS. They use a desktop distro because that's what they understand.

Of course your going to say it's not our job to babysit granny Jones and the wayward windoze admin. It is, if your driving down the road and a car wreck happens it IS your responsibility as a member of that community to care for your fellow members. Too look out for them. It is also a matter of self preservation. Especially if corporations are stung by unattended Linux installs and get the impression Linux is insecure. Takes jobs from all of us who rely on Linux work for a living.

It's easy to create a distro which stays current for the reasonably foreseable lifespan of the hardware. Most of it is just keeping support around, at least vulnerability support. A patched Linux install can run unattended more often than not until the machine croaks or logs fill the hard drive. That's using basically a default install with almost any major distro.

To the dude running Vista. You want to flame me for what I say yet here you are on a Fedora forum but you run windoze and another distro. You proclaim Fedora is not your thing. So what gives you the right to throw a single stone? How is it your posts are adding to the convo? It's not friendly banter, you are intentionally disrespectful, disdainful, arrogant and not saying anything. You accuse me of contradictions yet you are the one contradicting yourself. So, you run Vista by choice. Your the first I've actually met. I'm sure there are others. Even M$ admits Vista was a disaster. Then again I met a couple people who loved ME. Shrug if that's their thing go for it. My point was Vista is not a popular OS and imitating it is a bad idea.

Good point tashirosgt . I actually did such for a long time. Usually having multiple distros going. I'd install the latest version as I aquired a new machine and that was good till the machine died. I usually have 5 to 10 machines up and running at any given time. A dedicated server not as big a deal to upgrade. Copy data off too another machine, not all that much software too install. 50-100 packages unless it needs to double as a desktop in an emergency. Not much in the way of configurations that can't be backed up. A desktop machine that don't work so well. I just put FC 12 on this machine. I've already invested 5 hours and not even a tenth of the way in terms of installations and configurations. I can back up dot files but still have to install the software. A desktop machine is a home. Changing distros is like moving every 6 months. Having to pack up everything you own and moving it somewhere else.

[JN4OldSchool]

To the dude running Vista. You want to flame me for what I say yet here you are on a Fedora forum but you run windoze and another distro. You proclaim Fedora is not your thing. So what gives you the right to throw a single stone? How is it your posts are adding to the convo? It's not friendly banter, you are intentionally disrespectful, disdainful, arrogant and not saying anything. You accuse me of contradictions yet you are the one contradicting yourself. So, you run Vista by choice. Your the first I've actually met. I'm sure there are others. Even M$ admits Vista was a disaster. Then again I met a couple people who loved ME. Shrug if that's their thing go for it. My point was Vista is not a popular OS and imitating it is a bad idea.

You really think so? :confused: I'm sorry. I guess I just don't suffer fools gladly, though I am working on it with age. MS admits the release of Vista was a disaster, not the OS itself. But that is neither here nor there, I am sure my good friend Bert will point out that this is a LINUX forum. :)

What gives me the right? Hmmm...Free country? But beyond that, I guess because I started using Linux in 1999 and really got into it around 2003. In 2005 I tried FC4 and found out I really liked it. I used Fedora as my main distro from FC4 to F9. In that time I racked up a few thousand posts in here, some frivolous dribble but some might have been mildly helpful to others. I was on top of every new release, often installing it weeks ahead of the release date. I quickly learned the ins and outs of Fedora and I also have my ear to the wall in this forum. I have some friends, a few enemies, and I speak my mind.

In the same time period I have also used other distros. In fact, I cannot think of a distro that I have not tried, I am sure there are a few, but I have ran all the players. Gentoo, slack, arch, debian, Ubuntu, Mepis, Knoppix...I am also fluent with Gnome, KDE, and Xfce along with most common window managers. I am not so much a computer geek as I am an analyst though. I know and understand the Linux landscape better than most. I see the big picture. Sometimes I am wrong, often I am right. One thing is sure, I AM opinionated.

So, now the question is who are you and what have YOU done for Fedora? It seems to me you just pop up a couple times every few months with a carbon copy of your previous rant. Which, BTW, is perfectly fine with me. You most certainly have as much right to your opinion as I do mine. But if you want to play this game then I ask you, what right do YOU have to throw a single stone? :)

Oh, since Vista upsets you so badly I decided to post from F12. Even though I have chosen another distro I still do stay in touch. After all, despite your "informed" opinion, Linux is still Linux.

[Dies]

Has kicked off a lively discussion LOL.

My point still stands. You can deliver the driver updates in kernel upgrades. The repositories just upgrade the various versions like they do anyway but for longer.

There really isn't s a distro with long term support any more. Ubutunu your lucky to get 2 yrs out of an install.


I got that far and realized that if you're just going to say whatever comes to mind whether it's true or not then there's no point in reading the rest of such a lengthy post.

a.) Ubuntu upgrades are normally* very smooth.

b.) https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LTS

c.) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolling_release


* Karmic was unique in that there were changes in default filesystem and bootloader, but even then it was still possible if not recommended. I'm sure a lot of work went into that.

[forkbomb]

So, you run Vista by choice. Your the first I've actually met. I'm sure there are others.
All I guess I'll say, and certainly without the intention of trying to pick a Windows fight, is that that seems very odd.

I can't turn around without seeing another person running Vista. I'm a CS major at a small technical college and see Vista in use by plenty of people both inside and outside my program. A few strongly dislike it. Most silently use it to do what they have to do. For every person I've seen running Vista at my school alone, I'm sure there are others with whom I am not personally acquainted also using it.

Truth is if you bought a laptop or desktop during a pretty lengthy period of time from one of the big vendors, there was a very good chance it had Vista preinstalled.

=====


The only other thing I'd add is that passing over Sean's (JN4OldSchool) opinion would be odd. Dude knows his Linux.

That, and the tired "what right do you have" discussion is neither fruitful nor mature nor intelligent. It's a public forum. Heck, it's not even a worthy discussion to make in meatspace. It's a slur in most cases and ignoratio elenchi in all cases.

[JN4OldSchool]

Thanks Tom.

Draciron, can we try to be friends for a second? I really wish you would go back and actually read all the things I wrote throughout this thread. While we see the landscape differently I do not think we disagree. You rant about your perceived shortcomings of Fedora and you want to change this distro for the better. I can appreciate that, even though I think it is foolishness. You then attack me because I am not a Fedora user. But the reason I am not a Fedora user is because I do agree with a lot of what you are saying. My point is that Fedora serves a purpose as it is. There HAS to be a Fedora so that Linux can grow. Besides that, MILLIONS of people use and love Fedora as it is!!! They see NO problem with it. Why do you want to change something that is working?

Listen, I have an idea. But I am not smart enough to do it. I really do not want to become involved with Linux to this extent. But we NEED a new distro. It would be based on Fedora but it would have the qualities of Linux Mint. Ideally it would have its own repo in addition to the Fedora and rpmfusion repo. It would have to be based overseas somewhere, not Texas or Florida (where I live). It would come with the proper codecs and drivers, like Mint it would try to fly under the radar. Mint has succeeded so far. It would also contain the Mint tools (at least to start, if there was enough talent they could develop their own tools) ported to rpm. My model for a release would be a rolling distro that lagged about 3-6 months behind Fedora. If that is not possible then a 6 month release cycle staggered with the fedora cycle, again about 3-4 months behind. It would be an uber-stable distro matching debian lenny but the packages would not be as stale. I prefer the rolling release model because that takes care of LTS.

I have seriously thought this through, I have had this idea for over a year. I am just not the person to follow through. Again, I have a life and I am a manager, not a coder or developer. While I can find my way around any distro I do not have the skills for something like this.

You want to change the world? This is the way. This follows the FOSS model that has been successful for 18 years now. You are just swimming upstream trying to change Fedora. Fedora is what it is, and again, it plays a vital role in the Linux pantheon. Turn your energy to where it can really do some good.

[Dies]

Listen, I have an idea.

Yeah, me too. :)

To the point where I produce my own spin about a month or two after every release. I would love to release it somewhere where more can benefit but hosting, actually overseas hosting is the big issue. Basing in the US is possible but I'm sure would just lead to future headaches.

[JN4OldSchool]

Yeah, me too. :)

To the point where I produce my own spin about a month or two after every release. I would love to release it somewhere where more can benefit but hosting, actually overseas hosting is the big issue. Basing in the US is possible but I'm sure would just lead to future headaches.

It's ashame, isn't it? I am all for patents and copyright, it is not that the system does not work, it has just become corrupted, like everything else. But software patents? I straddle the fence on that, and I feel that if they are allowing end users to use things like mp3 and proprietary drivers for free then a distro should also be able to freely distribute them.

Oh well...This is the least of our troubles and it will get much worse real soon... :(

[Aloone]

An interesting thread.

I've read the whole thread and I do agree with many of the original poster's points. I hate installing operating systems but that's what the upgrade option is there for. I understand that upgrading can cause problems but that's the price you pay.

I like the idea of having a rolling release but the distributions listed on Wikipedia aren't very newb friendly.

It would be nice if the release cycle could be less infrequent but there's no chance of that happening.

I've never used Vista before. Some people I know hate it, some love it, the majority think Vista was bad when it was first released but it got patched which indicates that it wasn't out of beta and was released too early. I don't think I'll buy Windows again, not unless I have not choice in the matter, even then I'll just install Linux. The first time I'll use Windows Vista/7will probably be at work.

Defragmenting the hard drive is not problem if it's done often enough.

I don't use real time AV because it's too much of a resource hog and is like adding a few years onto the age of the hardware. Viruses are not a problem on Windows if you don't run as administrator, keep Windows up to date and you're careful about what you install. I occasionally scan with ClamWin every now and then and I haven't found a single virus in years.

[Paulfocused]

An interesting thread.

I like the idea of having a rolling release but the distributions listed on Wikipedia aren't very newb friendly.

It would be nice if the release cycle could be less infrequent but there's no chance of that happening.

Sounds like you should try PCLinuxOS;) It's about the closest thing to your description.

And to the guy who started this thread, there's a little (or should I say BIG) distro named Debian. It has an easy GUI installer with automated tasks, and it's stable releases sound like something you would enjoy using. Fedora is about being multi-purpose and getting new software, and even says so in the front page. It's also very newb friendly, and one of my first distros when I started out as a young penguin. I recently installed F12 (posting from school XP right now), and I configured all the non-free and other software I needed very quickly. Using the ftp install, I now have a fully updated and configured system (even my horrendous BCM card) and the whole process took less than an hour (even customizations). Doing that every six months is NOTHING. The frequent updates to software actually come in VERY handy to people like me, if it weren't for them I wouldn't have: improved filesystem, better performance, great support for BCM, great hardware detection, better boot, improved GIMP, etc. The list goes on. And no, it isn't our responsiblity to make Linux easy for granny smith or whoever, because it already is (use Mandriva or Ubuntu to witness this, with no disrespect to those distros of course). Functionality is important (hardware detection falls under this category), and only Slackware, Gentoo, CRUX, etc. takes a while to configure. Every other distro is easy and getting better (including Debian). What do you know? You even said in the first post you couldn't remember if FF is up to 4.0 right now...It's not even close to 4.0. 3.6 is in testing stages, and the gecko engine will continue to be revamped and improved way before 4.0 . I don't even follow up on Mozilla updates and I know that.....Make the madness stop? Every year GNU/Linux including Fedora improves. What's holding it back is unnecessary arguments and complaints/requests about tasks not being noobish enough...not to mention hardware support at times. If those problems didn't exist, GNU/Linux distros would all be floating orbs of quantum matter.:cool:

What exactly is the difference between FC6 and say FC11?

Linux is about doing stuff WITH your computer not TOO it. IT's about freeing people from the drudgery of maitence that has become part of every Windoze user's life.

I don't know where you got that deranged idea. GNU/Linux was started so that people could use an OS that was completely theirs (hence the genesis of GPL/GNU), which includes configuring it (hence your "TOO" remark). A true Linux geek doesn't give a rip about dealing with Windows and it's drudgery (I call it crap, perhaps I'm too crude?), unless of course he/she needs to for a certain app(s) or job/skill. Or if they have to post from it on their high school XP machine like me:D

PS: Sorry about the poor grammer, I simply don't feel like proofreading.

[xuniltoor]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KA5RQv9mBoY

[thunderkyss]

6. My Vista install is maintainance free! Just thought I would throw that in there. It sounds like you have not used Windows since Win. 95. However, since you have a bad habit of applying your own incompetence to everyone else I can say that I do understand...

:)

Just in-case this wound was starting to heal, thought I'd pick at the scab a little.


lol...

[Dan]

Gee ... That was helpful.

Thread closed.