New forum search engines added

[leigh123linux]

I have added a couple of new search engines to the forum search .

1. FedoraForum Search Engine
2. Bugzilla Fedora/RedHat Search Engine

[Demz]

awesome job but will anyone use them? speshally the bugzilla one, prolly not

[bob]

Bugzilla's a shortcut to help find if you're problem's unique. There have been times when I posted a problem and had someone mention "known issue - bug ....."

The real gem here is the tailored Google search! That's one heck of an engine and it's set up to search just our Forum. It's been available for a couple of years, but you had to go through the basement of Google to find it.

[Demz]

that should be pretty good but lets look at it on a brighter note, how many " newbs " will think about using that? hell some dont even bother to use google search before posting ,

lets see how effective it is, but IMO i think redtube.com will be more effective than the searches put there . im not saying its a bad idea that leigh did it, its about time the forum had that, just some dumb dumbs or " lazy " people wont bother to use those facilities

[scottro]

Well, it's like saying why do X? Problem Y will still exist.

One always has to start somewhere.

[Demz]

scott, forgive my ignorance but im sure someone made a googlebar extension for firefox for the exact same reason to lookup things fast. iv'e never had a problem with it . its the dodgy forum search thats been crap

[ilja]

As I see the problem, it is not about people not wanting to use the feature, but rather about the standard search engine being not functional. So even people who would rather like to use the search engine cannot get good results. Would not this new feature improve their lives?

[ilja]

scott, forgive my ignorance but im sure someone made a googlebar extension for firefox for the exact same reason to lookup things fast. iv'e never had a problem with it . its the dodgy forum search thats been crap

So we do agree. It's actually like adding the "googlebar" to the forum.

[Demz]

As I see the problem, it is not about people not wanting to use the feature, but rather about the standard search engine being not functional. So even people who would rather like to use the search engine cannot get good results. Would not this new feature improve their lives?

it prolly would improve there lives but as i stated in this thread above, how many dumb dumbs or lazy people use google search? its maybe a wasted effort on leighs behalf that he added it to the forum but only time will tell

[ilja]

it prolly would improve there lives but as i stated in this thread above, how many dumb dumbs or lazy people use google search? its maybe a wasted effort on leighs behalf that he added it to the forum but only time will tell

Cool. So, we do agree, that once the hack is already done, it is ok like this? Or is there something, which should be improve on it?

[Demz]

Cool. So, we do agree, that once the hack is already done, it is ok like this? Or is there something, which should be improve on it?

im not agreeing nore am i disagreeing. as i said only time will tell if these features wil make a difference, my guess is they prolly wont make a difference at all.

[ilja]

im not agreeing nore am i disagreeing. as i said only time will tell if these features wil make a difference, my guess is they prolly wont make a difference at all.

Ok. That's a point. :)

[Demz]

if people cant type in https://bugzilla.redhat.com/ or http://google.com what makes you think there gonna clicck on the search facility an type in whatever there looking for? you might get the occasionaly brainy person that'll think of it an do it but that wont be many its gonna be a bit like this
http://www.beckersbakeryanddeli.com/images/Cakes/Pinky%20n%20the%20Brain.jpg

[scottro]

scott, forgive my ignorance but im sure someone made a googlebar extension for firefox for the exact same reason to lookup things fast. iv'e never had a problem with it . its the dodgy forum search thats been crap


Could be, but I use opera. <shrug>.

It's also easier to tell someone use the fora's built in bugzilla search feature rather than say use the googlebar extension, and then have to answer when they say, "How do I do that?" :D

(A question which I wouldn't be able to answer as I use opera.)

As for people not using it, well, first they'll ask the question, then have it, hopefully kindly, suggested to them that they make use of it. As you say, only time will tell and it certainly has potental.

[ilja]

if people cant type in http://redhat.bugzilla.com/ orhttp://google.com what makes you think there gonna clicck on the search facility an type in whatever there looking for? you might get the occasionaly brainy person that'll think of it an do it but that wont be many

1) You have a negative picture of the people ;) But I do agree with the point you make.
2) We do agree, that the standard Vbulletin search engine is crap?
Now how can it be improved. One way would be to work on the searchengine itself. Try to install a plugin, which makes it more powerfull. Another way is to outsource it to google. The latter is what we decided to do.
The question now to the crowd out there: Is it ok, that we did it? And how can it be improved.
If not, what would be the alternative to it. We are aware, that the user base has a solid technical know-how. This is why the input is much appreciated.

[Demz]

Could be, but I use opera. <shrug>.

It's also easier to tell someone use the fora's built in bugzilla search feature rather than say use the googlebar extension, and then have to answer when they say, "How do I do that?" :D

(A question which I wouldn't be able to answer as I use opera.)

As for people not using it, well, first they'll ask the question, then have it, hopefully kindly, suggested to them that they make use of it. As you say, only time will tell and it certainly has potental.

a condom has potential to scott, i think i said most of it above, i wont repeat it again but i will say this, the Bugzilla search is handy, the actual Google search is not IMHO but we will see, as for Opera, firefox rockz

[Firewing1]

Would it be possible to remove the "Google+" button and the "Create your own Custom Search Engine" links? I'm just being picky here, but it would be cool if we could put the "Search" button on the same line as the input box and set the text to "Go" (like the FedoraForum one) for the sake of consistency and saving some screen real estate.

[bbfuller]

Well, I've often ducked out of the forum and used Google to do a forum search, before coming back. I for one will be very pleased to be able to do it from within the forum.

Main benefit as I see it is that the search results I've been getting from it have me still logged into the forum.

Disadvantage as far as I can see is that in my copy of Opera, 90 times out of a hundred the forum pages never completely load and I have to stop them before I can move on. Checking, it's always the Google search area that's failed to load.

I'll try it in Firefox tomorrow.

EDIT: Appears to be only an Opera problem, but it's repeatable on two machines.

[JN4OldSchool]

if people cant type in https://bugzilla.redhat.com/ or http://google.com what makes you think there gonna clicck on the search facility an type in whatever there looking for? you might get the occasionaly brainy person that'll think of it an do it but that wont be many its gonna be a bit like this
http://www.beckersbakeryanddeli.com/images/Cakes/Pinky%20n%20the%20Brain.jpg

http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/5636/pinkybrainnewhatwl3.jpg

Who is the mouse Pinky? Are you moonlighting on me? Get rid of him Pinky so we can get to work. Tonight we institute the Google forum search Pinky, tomorrow we take over the world!

<Tux's hat courtesy of Tangled Web Productions>

[Demz]

yeah the mouse is pinky i think

[JN4OldSchool]

yeah the mouse is pinky i think

That's true, Brain is a rat isnt he?

[Demz]

yeah he the rat

[savage]

I think this is a good idea, but the in-built should be kept (if you're planning on removing).

2) We do agree, that the standard Vbulletin search engine is crap?It does have it's merits, mainly being able to search by date - which I just tested on Google for "mp3 codec" brought up results from 2007, not that this is a bad thing, since it provides different results from the in-built search.

I'm not sure if you can set Google to search by date, but why I think this is a good idea.

Demz is right, some people are too lazy to search, and type URLs, but those of us who do use search, and I imagine most people with 100+ posts probably do, or have, the structure of that menu gives a path to follow:
search the forum
search the forum through Google (possibly older but still relevant posts)
Look on bugzilla to see if it's listed
Maybe bugzilla before the Google search, but thats cosmetic more than anything.

One suggestion, I'm not sure if you can do this, but can the search boxes be added to the actual search page (http://forums.fedoraforum.org/search.php)? People without javascript enabled will miss the drop-down - I'm on a temp PC which has noscript, I wouldn't have noticed otherwise.

[metatron]

I think it's going to help the people who do actually use bugzilla and google. I see it as a tool for those people. The people who don't search before they post are still going to do that. But why not make it easier on those of us that do search, and at the same time make it more inviting and easier to those who normally wouldn't search. I tend to keep my browser pointed to this forum when I'm working on Fedora stuff and this just made my day. Especially since I've been using bugzilla more now that I am using a beta for the first time. I think that this can not be a bad idea no matter how you swing it.
Also, I think both Pinky and the Brain are mice.

[Demz]

should really be promoting the googlebar firefox extension not the Search Engine thats been installed as a Forum addon

[scottro]

Ah, but Linux is all about choice. Some of us much prefer opera.

[Demz]

Ah, but Linux is all about choice. Some of us much prefer opera.

doesn't Opera have a search engine built into it? Get quick access to Google, eBay, Amazon and more with the search field in the upper right corner. Or, for even quicker searching, search directly in the address bar using built-in and customizable keywords. For example, type "g Opera" in the address bar to search for “Opera” with Google. You can also create your own Web search from any search field on the Internet, simply by right clicking on a search field and choosing “Create Search”. http://www.opera.com/browser/

[scottro]

It's got a little google thing, but I seldom use it. I usually just go to google.

As for me, I find the new engine a convenience, no muss, no fuss, no bother, no having to worry about toolbars.

I'd have to vote on this one as a Good Thing(TM).

[Demz]

It's got a little google thing, but I seldom use it. I usually just go to google.

As for me, I find the new engine a convenience, no muss, no fuss, no bother, no having to worry about toolbars.

I'd have to vote on this one as a Good Thing(TM).

It's got a little google thing, but I seldom use it. there you go scott, what makes you think newbs will use the Google Search Addon that leigh installed into this forum?

[scottro]

Maybe the same reason I do. :) If I'm googling for something, I go to google. I type in whatever ['m googling and open promising pages in adjacent tabs. Or, hit ctl+t and open a tab and google.

However, if I'm searching the forums, I start with the forum search--if I have no joy, then I don't have to go to google or bugzilla anymore, because it's there.

At any rate, I think I'd have to say, "Whatever." If you don't like it or you prefer your firefox addon, use that, but I, at least, find it convenient.

I can't believe we've had 30 posts on this thing. :)

Not saying your way is bad, just that *I* find this more convenient.

[Demz]

Maybe the same reason I do. :) If I'm googling for something, I go to google. I type in whatever ['m googling and open promising pages in adjacent tabs. Or, hit ctl+t and open a tab and google.

However, if I'm searching the forums, I start with the forum search--if I have no joy, then I don't have to go to google or bugzilla anymore, because it's there.

At any rate, I think I'd have to say, "Whatever." If you don't like it or you prefer your firefox addon, use that, but I, at least, find it convenient.

I can't believe we've had 30 posts on this thing. :)

Not saying your way is bad, just that *I* find this more convenient.

its more convienent for the "lazy "

[Demz]

i see the Bugzilla one removed? how come

[marcrblevins]

I don't see the Bugzilla search thingy. Only Fedora Forum Search and Google Search thingy.

[Nokia]

It has been removed. Permanently it seems.

[jonathonp]

I think it would make life much easier if members asked questions (that is the title of the post) in a careful and considerate way.
A lot of threads that contain helpful information are often hidden away because the title of the thread was poorly written.

Maybe threads with helpful posts should be rewritten in the interest of the forum. I don't know if this can be done due to posting restrictions.

When i start a thread i try to make it informative so that it is easy to locate for anyone doing a search.

Nobody should have to reinvent the wheel.

Lazy questions that lack effective description are a big time waster and for me are deeply annoying. Isn't it better to contribute something positive to the community at large?

I think the forum guidelines should encourage this kind of approach.

[ilja]

Hi johnnylinux,

I agree with you. And basically the Howto Forum was made for this. http://forums.fedoraforum.org/forumdisplay.php?f=12
If you find certain posts especially helpful to the community, the idea is, that you contribute by rewriting them as a howto or guide. I am sure nobody is going to object it, especially if you link back to the original thread!

Ilja

[scottro]

Actually, the forum guidelines do suggest using helpful titles. Much of time, I find myself changing titles of a thread--especially the ones that read something like help, wireless help, can't connect and other vague titles.

[William Haller]

Glad you added the extra search engine.

Today, however, I got a rude surprise. When I was searching for posts on DNSSEC, it complained about posting more than one search a minute. Come on guys - get real.

If a search returns 0 entries (or even some arbitrarily low number of entries like say under 5 or 10) it can be pretty obvious that you need to change the terms of your search or that the results from the titles you scan weren't what you wanted. It doesn't take minute to take a word out of a search query and waiting a minute to hit search again is crazy!

[Demz]

Glad you added the extra search engine.

Today, however, I got a rude surprise. When I was searching for posts on DNSSEC, it complained about posting more than one search a minute. Come on guys - get real.

If a search returns 0 entries (or even some arbitrarily low number of entries like say under 5 or 10) it can be pretty obvious that you need to change the terms of your search or that the results from the titles you scan weren't what you wanted. It doesn't take minute to take a word out of a search query and waiting a minute to hit search again is crazy!
im gathering you used the inbuilt vbulletin Search?

[Jake]

vB default search works fine for me.. but maybe that's because I know how to use it :D

Anywho as for these other ones, I cannot use them :D

reason: I block all of google's nasty scripts which allow them to spy on me.

[William Haller]

@Demz

Yes, I was using the old default search engine in normal mode as opposed to advanced search. I see that it's now 30 seconds (or maybe it varies with the load on the server). Regardless, it still seems unreasonable. There are just too many reasons when you might have spelled something wrong or were just too specific and got 0 or too few results to have to wait to reenter a search.

[Demz]

i think leigh123@linux should be able to fix that up , but i would recommend you use google, its better than the default search embeded into the forum

[leigh123linux]

@Demz

Yes, I was using the old default search engine in normal mode as opposed to advanced search. I see that it's now 30 seconds (or maybe it varies with the load on the server). Regardless, it still seems unreasonable. There are just too many reasons when you might have spelled something wrong or were just too specific and got 0 or too few results to have to wait to reenter a search.


Searches put a large load on the server so it is reasonable to limit them, 60 seconds seems to be default for most forums.
I wont reduce it further, FYI the other engine that I added has no restriction and is quicker ( + zero server load for the forum ).


There are just too many reasons when you might have spelled something wrong or were just too specific and got 0 or too few results to have to wait to reenter a search.

Tough, it isn't my problem if people can't use a search engine properly. :rolleyes:

[Demz]

pretty obvious that google search is quicker + zero server load for the forum

[William Haller]

Well. I erased my first reply, which was probably a good thing.

If searches are such a problem for you and put such a load on your servers and Google is load-free, then why is the forum search engine still available?

I still stand by my original statement. If you have to limit by time, then having to wait a minute when your search query fails to deliver is not helping your user base. A search for DNSSEC which gives one thread about dynamic DNS (and now this thread) but which prevents any query for the next minute is just wrong.

You can take a "that's tough" attitude, but it makes the forum much less useful and irritating for people who are using it to solve work problems and don't have unlimited minutes to spend waiting to try a different search.

[leigh123linux]

Well. I erased my first reply, which was probably a good thing.

If searches are such a problem for you and put such a load on your servers and Google is load-free, then why is the forum search engine still available?

I still stand by my original statement. If you have to limit by time, then having to wait a minute when your search query fails to deliver is not helping your user base. A search for DNSSEC which gives one thread about dynamic DNS (and now this thread) but which prevents any query for the next minute is just wrong.

You can take a "that's tough" attitude, but it makes the forum much less useful and irritating for people who are using it to solve work problems and don't have unlimited minutes to spend waiting to try a different search.


Just wait till the F11 release, if the forum is swamped I will increase the search time to reduce server load and keep the forum running. :(
If people can't be bothered to wait they can use the custom engine.
The custom engine also returns better results.

http://www.google.com/cse?cx=011145912271890646366%3Anmym_cfcmy8&ie=UTF-8&q=DNSSEC&sa=Search

A search for DNSSEC which gives one thread about dynamic DNSTry it now ;)

[dciarnie]

I have to agree with William. Forcing someone to wait 30 seconds when a search returns no results is unreasonable.

60 seconds seems to be default for most forums.

Is this a relatively new vBulletin feature? FedoraForum is the first one where I have seen this limitation (and no, I'm not particularly fond of it).

[leigh123linux]

I have to agree with William. Forcing someone to wait 30 seconds when a search returns no results is unreasonable.



Is this a relatively new vBulletin feature? FedoraForum is the first one where I have seen this limitation (and no, I'm not particularly fond of it).

Is it reasonable to let the server load get a high enough to stop the forum working for everyone ?
It isn't a new feature, other forums like NvNews uses it .

[dciarnie]

Neither option is reasonable. vBulletin may not support it but it is does not seem unreasonable to wave the limit when a search returns no results given that an empty search result is not going to put nearly the load on the server that a non-empty search result would.

On another note, there are a couple of things about the Google search that I don't like. First, the search causes a new window or tab to be opened; I would prefer the results to go to the same window. Also, the built in search engine returns results in reverse date order while the Google engine returns them in random order; I generally find that the newer posts are more relevant.

[dciarnie]

Has anything else changed in how the built in search engine works? I just tried a search on "kde" and got no results! That is not unreasonable, it's wrong.

[dciarnie]

I've also tried "dvd" and "lvm" both of which should return plenty of results. I take it that you have forced search terms to be 4+ characters in length?

[scottro]

There are plenty of forums that have limits on time to wait between searches. I don't know if there is a *standard* limit, but the old (and now defunct) freebsd forums had the 60 second limit. Ubuntu used to have one, now, if you search too quickly, you get a random question such as how many ears does a human have.

I'm sorry, and I realize people will think I'm prejudiced because I'm a CM here, but I have found many forums that do have a default time limit between searches, and I'm pretty sure that it's usually 60 seconds, for better or worse.

[Jake]

Scottro limits are pretty much on all forums. Even the master forum:

http://www.vbulletin.com/forum/search.php? (20 sec)

But then again, seriously a 30 second wait between searches? Is it really a problem?

By the time I've read the results to see if what I wanted came up, 30 seconds are long gone...

As for typo's... Get a spell checker :p

Standard limit is 4+ char,

Reason being, that if someone searches for something simple like DVD, the intense server load it would cause, could bring a website on a not so hot speed connection down, this limit can be altered by Administrators if they please.

Then again, some words could be "blacklisted" meaning, if you search for it, it auto bounces and says no. This is usually also used to help server load.

[dciarnie]

limits are pretty much on all forums
Other forums may have limits but, for some reason, this is the first time that I have ever run into this feature.
But then again, seriously a 30 second wait between searches? Is it really a problem?
It is when your search returns no results like when trying common search terms such as "kde", "dvd" or "lvm". The issue isn't whether there is a time limit between searches. You are quite right that looking through the result list will likely take more than 30 seconds. The problem is when the search returns no results at all and one is forced to wait before trying out a refined search (such as happened when I tried lvm earlier today).
Standard limit is 4+ char,

Reason being, that if someone searches for something simple like DVD, the intense server load it would cause
The problem is that the tech world is full of 3-character acronyms which everyone uses. It is not likely that one would get many relevant hits with "digital video disc" or "k desktop environment". Also, searching for something like 'kde memory leak' is going to return a lot of unrelated hits if 'kde' is ignored; the kde will limit the search results and therefore reduce the server load. A blacklist of short, common English words (e. g. a, of, the) would be fine. Blacklisting acronyms is problematic.

In any case, it's neither here nor there since these terms now work. (Thanks.)

[rthomas]

Just to comment on another issue with the Google search engine --

The "Paste" command does not work! This is a problem for me, since often I will Copy and Paste an error message into the forum search engine. The only search engine which allows this "Paste" function is vBulletin :confused:

[ilja]

Just to comment on another issue with the Google search engine --

The "Paste" command does not work! This is a problem for me, since often I will Copy and Paste an error message into the forum search engine. The only search engine which allows this "Paste" function is vBulletin :confused:

Yeah, you are right :( Does the middle button of the mouse work (select something and then click the middle mouse button in the Google search field)

[Hlingler]

Also: pay attention to the results of the search, and note if any of the terms are flagged as "too common" and therefore excluded from the search - this often happens, and is easy to overlook (I've done so many times, even knowing this fact): I typed "the quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog" and got:Search: Keyword(s): quick, brown, fox, jumps, lazy, dog
The following words are either very common, too long, or too short and were not included in your search: the, over

V

[rthomas]

Does the middle button of the mouse work (select something and then click the middle mouse button in the Google search field)

Yes! It does! I never thought to try that; thanks :)

[rthomas]

Yeah, you are right :( Does the middle button of the mouse work (select something and then click the middle mouse button in the Google search field)

Unfortunately not everybody has a middle mouse button!

[scottro]

In many cases, if you don't have a middle mouse button, pressing right and left mouse buttons simultaneously will produce the same effect.

[ilja]

Yes! It does! I never thought to try that; thanks :)

you are welcome. This is actually the "real Unix" way of copy and paste. But it is only a workaround. Let's see, whether we can do anything about the actual bug.

[leigh123linux]

you are welcome. This is actually the "real Unix" way of copy and paste. But it is only a workaround. Let's see, whether we can do anything about the actual bug.


Fixed.....