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View Full Version : Linux on the rise!


jale2ice
7th September 2004, 08:11 PM
I just finished reading about M$ longhorne failure and how linux is creeping up in THEIR world... It's amazing how linux is involved in almost everything now a days. RedHat & Unisys just partnered up. Hewlett Packard shipping laptops that operate on linux. Sun plans to release code for Solaris. Linux is eating into M$'s profits. Goverments are going with the open source solution. Life is great! I'm happy. :D

Anyone disagree with the movement?

ghaefb
7th September 2004, 08:15 PM
Anyone disagree with the movement?
No... I agree :D

Psquared
7th September 2004, 08:19 PM
I would have disagreed a month ago - but not now. The learning curve is steep, but I see a lot of potential in Linux. I think it also might be a good way to make a living. If the demand increases there is going to be a demand for people who can set up the systems for home (and business) users and maintain it. (although not much maintaining is necessary)

I also see Linux maturing as a mainstream OS. It is flexible, unbreakable but can do anything Windows can do. The real test will be when viruses start coming out and we have to deal with popups and the like. As Linux matures this will happen and how the open source community responds will determine how far Linux can go.

imdeemvp
7th September 2004, 10:55 PM
even our own governer in kahlifornia has suggested to use open source to help the budget and here is the article (http://www.fedoraforum.org/forum/showthread.php?t=20924) can you can the terminator wants to terminate M$....... :D

seabass55
8th September 2004, 03:39 AM
Fortunatly anything that comes out to threaten linux (meaning virii and popups here as mentioned above) will affect the developers as well...and those are good people to have on your side when combating a problem. I don't see virii being a big problem just by the design of *nix permissions...but hell you never know.
My ONLY problem with linux becoming more mainstream is it becoming too "windows" like. Too many wizards and auto-configurators. Aslong as distros like Lindows (or whatever it's called now) keep that crowd happy. I think/hope the advantage of this not happening is people will not be so ignorant/dumb when it comes to computers. People like my mother who I recieved a phone call from today...bought a new computer and really knows nothing about computers (like dare I say atleast 80% of the people out there).....maybe that's just a dream of mine.

Anywho...I think windows "type" stuff has it's place (meaning for the general populace) and I hope that doesn't flow too strongly into the linux world (which IMHO we've seen too much of with KDE and Gnome)....but other than that I'm all about linux taking over. People just need to be less dumb by realizing "hey...computers are becoming a part of life..maybe I should learn something about this thing"

Shadow Skill
8th September 2004, 04:01 AM
Fortunatly anything that comes out to threaten linux (meaning virii and popups here as mentioned above) will affect the developers as well...and those are good people to have on your side when combating a problem. I don't see virii being a big problem just by the design of *nix permissions...but hell you never know.
My ONLY problem with linux becoming more mainstream is it becoming too "windows" like. Too many wizards and auto-configurators. Aslong as distros like Lindows (or whatever it's called now) keep that crowd happy. I think/hope the advantage of this not happening is people will not be so ignorant/dumb when it comes to computers. People like my mother who I recieved a phone call from today...bought a new computer and really knows nothing about computers (like dare I say atleast 80% of the people out there).....maybe that's just a dream of mine.

Anywho...I think windows "type" stuff has it's place (meaning for the general populace) and I hope that doesn't flow too strongly into the linux world (which IMHO we've seen too much of with KDE and Gnome)....but other than that I'm all about linux taking over. People just need to be less dumb by realizing "hey...computers are becoming a part of life..maybe I should learn something about this thing"

Its this attitude that is a problem, windows has some nice features that should be incorporated into Linux (Unified install system that allows for manual source compiling as well as rpm or whatever to work once installed...End the ###### dependency hell for the love of all that is good. I have had too many instantces where even though I did not change any of the path's programs wouldn't compile because of missing libraries that were indeed installed [I compiled them damn it!] ) With the current abilities of Linux to support multiple desktop managers I see no reason to bad mouth KDE or Gnome on the basis that they are too windows like; there is not one thing wrong with making window managers simillar to windows since M$ has all but proven despite its flaws that its GUI works, and works very well. I also see no reason why Microsofts installation method minus dll's and such being anywhere in the system should not be copied...I have never experienced "DLL hell" with XP I can't say the same for any flavor of *nix I have used. The permissions setup should take care of many of the issues with the exe install system since you would be prompted during execution so no wierdo program is going to install unless it manages to hack your root account., at which point there isn't much that can be done.

It's this attitude that we in the linux community should not do what works well and improve on what works that is holding it back.

seabass55
8th September 2004, 04:20 AM
opinions are like *******s...everyone has one.

Like I said "Aslong as distros like Lindows (or whatever it's called now) keep that crowd happy." There's a place for stuff like that...I just PERSONALLY hope it doesn't become mainstream. That's just me and my opinion...don't tell me that my attitude towards a theoretical is a problem as neither of us know what will happen. Maybe your take will actually cause the downfall of linux...it will become to corporate because lets be realistic...people want to get paid. Maybe my take will cause no progression in the future of linux and cause it to crumble because there's no support for it in the "real world". State your opinion....have an open-mind and don't bash others opinions.

Shadow Skill
8th September 2004, 07:27 AM
So you don't think that a community of elitists [Not saying this forum exhibits this at all mind you, so don't anyone even try and say that I am. ] has ANY effect on the maturation of Linux? Believe it or not there are such things as opinions that are not constructive...People do not learn how to use computers by being tormented by incredibly long CLI commands etc. They learn by sitting down and messing around with the machine. Don't bash your opinion, lets be honest here you implied that by forcing the CLI upon people it will make them learn how to use it...this is a crap idea, it leads to nonsensical programming which creates programs that are all but crippled unless you use the CLI [Mplayer, and what feels like almost every config tool you find out there, although some distro's are better than others at least one config tool seems broken from the GUI in all of the one's I ave tried.] The community also seems to wholly resist the idea of improving on the windows installation method, the only thing wrong with it [that Linux has not already solved.] is the lack of a single directory for configuration files and exe's.

There probably was a method to what turned out to be madness though, namely the lack for a need to implicitly declare paths in the exe since the exe usually is in the same place as the required files are. This is not actually a bad thing although it cripples th run prompt for most stuff since it requires an implicit definition of an exe's path, and they are everywhere and anywhere. Unifying the exe path [placing them all in one place] allows for the computer to find programs somewhat faster (and a much more efficient way to call programs if you are not able to get to a GUI menu while doing something.] Microsoft could work around this by placing the implicit path of an exe in its registry. [Apparently that never occured to them for some unimaginable reason.]

Linux's alternative which amounts to dependency hell is quite frankly a feeble attempt to simply not improve on what works by insisting that it is "better" to be "different." [inefficient] While the dependency hell issue is slowly being solved technically the resistance of the community itself to an easier more friendly linux is holding it back, irrespective of what you may think ot believe. The idea that Linux is becoming too windows like [Windows like in a bad way from what I gather.] is only a perpetuation of the misconception that linux or any other OS for that matter teaches you how to "use" a computer; and that overly difficult and inefficient interfaces are the way to teach these NOOBS how to use thier machines.

ghaefb
8th September 2004, 08:32 AM
You are so wrong... Shadow Skill :)
I don't have time to answer this right now, I hope foolish can clear your fog.

imdeemvp
8th September 2004, 08:46 AM
off topic, may be you guys wanna read this: http://www.pcworld.com/resource/article/0,aid,15745,pg,2,00.asp

Shadow Skill
8th September 2004, 09:20 AM
I would hope you can explain where I am in error Ghaefb, because I am really, truly tired of the "Linux is becoming to windows like.." garbage argument, or the insane idea that an OS teaches you how to use a computer......No one learns how to use a computer, they learn how to use an OS. I for one consider the CLI the only genuine way to master this OS...(It really is the only way at this point, this is changing though.) It took me quite sometime to learn enough about windows to attempt Linux, but I sure as all hell didn't learn it by obsessing over the command line, and I do not appreciate anyone saying or implying that people should be forced to suffer through the CLI should they want to have even a general command of the OS, which is what this is all about.

Just because one does not mind using long and protracted commands does not make something "good" or the way to go for everyone else. [I've done programming so I had become somewhat accustomed to it long before trying Linux.] I can't understand where the complaining even comes from since the nature of Linux is probably going to always allow for incredibly high customization, at the very least it should provide high stability and great security (no matter how popular it becomes.) as long as it exists.

I just get tired of seeing this sort of argument over and over as if its only supposed to be for "us" and not "them" so we MUST never make the CLI a powerful tool instead we MUST make it the end all and be all of the OS to keep out the interloping Windoze user....I always seem to see someone complaning about how much KDE is windows like or how Gnome is windows like (Can't people admit when they see a good set up?) you can always delete KDE and Gnome and use Fluxbox (Thats what I did, although I need to reinstall Gnome just in case.) or so many other different windows managers. No one wants Linux to take on the PROBLEMS associated with windows (DLL's amd EXE's everywhere, defaulting to essentially root privelages, IE integration into the Kernel, GUI integration into the Kernel, the list goes on.) I love my Fedora but I am not going to say it no longer needs to take a few que's from Windows, just because thier software has degenerated so much. My whole point since first replying in this thread is that the argument mentioned above needs to stop because the setup in place is by no means perfect, and even this imperfect setup offers so many choices (its sad that there is a sort of disunion with certain things.) choices that there is almost no danger that Linux will adopt the most damning negative qualities of Windows; and that the idea that we must push the CLI on people which is what this person was implying will make them learn how to use the OS is a complete fallacy in and of itself.

superbnerd
8th September 2004, 09:31 AM
a perpetuation of the misconception that linux or any other OS for that matter teaches you how to "use" a computer; and that overly difficult and inefficient interfaces are the way to teach these NOOBS how to use thier machines. Its not that linux teaches you how to use a computer, but it requires you to know how to use it. I haven't had dephell in a looong time due to yum. it would be nice if linux had a universial package manager that allowed you to install via source, rpm, dep, etc. what really doesn't make sense is that you can't use rpms of the same version because they were built for different distos. distros should almost be transparent nowadays, atleat the simialar distros. the rpm based distros should have compatible rpms and the deb the same, much like most programs work on winxx (98, me, 2000, and xp)
The real test will be when viruses start coming out and we have to deal with popups and the like. mozilla/firefox and just about any decent browser already stops popups. whats your point? viruses are another thing. well the problem is not viruses perse, it more about the user base. linux's security is partially derived from its steep learning curve which educates the users. linux is easily hacked and is vulnerable to viruses all the same. the users just take the necessary precautions to prevent these problems from becoming an epidemic. thats why forums like these exist: to help linux servive the influx of newbies. they are linux's greatest threat. However, linux has the potential to be the universial os because of its modular nature: do you want a windows like gui or a mac gui or just commandline, your choice. don't diss the wizard installation method. linux's choice is a double edge sword. the wizard usually give decent default to help the newbies. they need to avoid, however, only giving you the simplified method. the only thing, i wish linux would move a little faster, so it can really make headway in microsofts downtime (longhorn).

ghaefb
8th September 2004, 09:44 AM
Shadow Skill you should read this thread -> http://www.fedoraforum.org/forum/showthread.php?t=20758
Especially this post -> http://www.fedoraforum.org/forum/showpost.php?p=93719&postcount=59

Shadow Skill
8th September 2004, 10:01 AM
Its this weird behavior with mixing rpm (or whatever package format is used.) with source compiling it just doesnt work all the time period..That is why Linux absolutely does not NOT need to look at the exe format because guess what that works 99% of the time regardless of program. Ghaefb I posted in that thread and all I can say is that it's bs for the reason I stated earlier in this post. The system doesn't really work because I can tell you first hand that not every program has an rpm nor does everyone know how to build an rpm (or wants to take the extra time, when they can compile and install from source.) in order for Fedora or any other distro for that matter to play nice. I shouldn't cater to a horrible weakness within the OS it should cater to my ability level... Dephell is far from dead although packages are making a slight dent in it.

Also sometimes rpm's are broken (Videolan is one I have found.) so it is nessecary to compile from source if you want the program to work properly, until you can say that 99% of the time you can compile from source and install via rpm with no dependency whining from the system you can't say that Dephell is dead or even close to dying. (I am not just basing this on my Fedora experience alone mind you.)

Ps. I am also fully aware of Linux's work in progress status this is all in the context of my above replies specifically the first one. Oh and BTW Ghaefb you got my handle wrong :( its Shadow Skill not Shadow Kill, must be early there as well eh? :D

ghaefb
8th September 2004, 10:05 AM
must be early there as well eh?
:) yes it is...

jale2ice
8th October 2004, 03:03 AM
Here is another great look for the linux community.

http://www.redhat.com/solutions/info/casestudies/orbitz.html

DarkMasterMatt
12th October 2004, 10:49 PM
This is good news indeed. Though Linux still has a long way to go before it will be adopted by normal home users. Not everyone likes having to actually work on making their operating system usable. Hopefully Red Hat will consider making a version of it's distro targeted towards the average user in the future(Fedora Core currently is better for geekier people).

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