Is it just me?

[Shadow Skill]

Is it just me or is the average mac user totally ignorant of how the computer world really works? I seem to see alot of Mac users claiming that Mac's are cheaper than Pc's yet what I see are subpar pieces of hardware which would not cost as much in the PC world as per the specs of the machines. (This is most visible in the Mobile department, just take a look at the most expensive Powerbook available and then look at a Hypersonic-pc aviator prebuilt mobile with amd 64 technology. The powerbook is garbage in comparison, yet the Mac user only seems to know about Dell.....)

They also claim sometimes that a PC is actually more expensive than a Mac (This is probably only true if you go for a brand name machine, but the smart shopper would have his or hers built to thier specifications.) this is not true at all considering how one is able to freely upgrade anything in a PC. Its also quite obvious that Apple does not really want the user to upgrade thier computers (Just like any other brand name they want you to go and buy the new model every two or three years.) and would rather have you buy a new and shiny one. (Just like the Ipod.) They also don't seem to understand that in the real world support for legacy products is quite common.

Have I just been exposed to an ignorant subset of typical Mac users or is this sort of inability to shop or undertstand common business practice normal?

[seabass55]

I thought it's been a LONG time fact that Mac's were more expensive than PC's??? Now do you get what you paid for? I personally have been very impressed with what apple has put out in the past few years but unfortunatly bang for the buck I can do better with PC's. Maybe for Xmas I'll buy myself something nice from Apple (other than the iPod I already own). One of their G5 rackmount servers will fit nice to replace my poweredge :-D

[AliOop]

While I've greatly admired, and will continue to, the design of the Mac I just can't justify the cost of these great looking and well designed machines with their well matched software. I don't see anything wrong with the whole concept. Damnit it's the price. If we as Linux advocates can sing the praise of our favorite OS I can't in good conscience deride Apple. After all, don't Windows fans put down Linux? Numbers are what we as a whole look at. The speed of a processor or how well a program works and the interactions of it. It took a Mac person to dispell that notion of just looking at numbers. It's the cost of a PPC that has kept me away. And that is the bottom line.

As far as PPCs being subpar, I don't believe it. But I won't be buying one in the near furture. But I'd sure like to get my hands one!

[imdeemvp]

macs have good candy eye.....other than that they have the same issues as a regular pc

and BTW mac uses same hardware as pc's SO i dont really see the difference and if there is one it would be the OS X

[superbnerd]

the thread starter is right, mac users don't shop at all when it comes to computer hardware. even for a wireless kerboard, they all go straight to the apple store and buy a $70 plain white keyboard that laks any multimedia keys or advancements beyond the year 1995. I just don't get it. there was an article on slashdot a while back, dicussing whether mac users where typically smater that pc users, but from really world expereience, I would have to say mac users are mostly idiots when it comes to computer knowledge. most users know thier small set of applications very well but lack any form of acceptable knowledge of how the rest of the system or any unfamiliar application works (even though macs are assumed to be "easier" to use). the other day a friend asked me if mac were easier because thats what he heard, and I said (sarcastically) "yeah, there so much easier than those difficult point-n-click windows pcs."
but if its the hardware design you like (even though there are many more and better designs for pcs) you can always run linux on ppc. check out the yellow dog distro. its based on fedora.

[imdeemvp]

because their sales are so bad they jack-up the price.....that's all

but muster on rye bread will also show the same color on wheat bread....

[Shadow Skill]

Personally I don't like the Apple monochrome (white only) design. I like black and they just don't make products in black and that pisses me off. I also don't see the point of dual cpu machines at this point (Its even worse with windows based machines since as far as I know the memory management is not very good when it comes to dual cpu set ups. Apparently about forty percent of the second cpu is wasted. This according to my pc hardware professor.) I wish Apple would use its head and port OSX to the PC where they could make real money...especially with the total absence of Longhorn (Microsoft isn't even shipping Winfs with Longhorn, they are releasing it seperately; I can already see Longhorn being totally broken when users try to add the Winfs system into thier existing longhorn system. The Linux community should start developing a sql type filesystem so they can steal the Winfs thunder, Winfs was really the only thing I was looking forward to personally.)

Another thing I have noticed is that the mac user thinks he is "leet" for owning his Mac..always talking about POC name brand pc's in order to prove his superiority to the rest of the computer world...(Take a look at some zdnet article replies if you don't believe me. One person brought up an Emachine as if that was the end all and be all of Pc's.....)

I don't fault Mac users for loving thier overly expensive subpar hardware (Subpar because the specs absolutely do not justify the prices.) and apparently excellent OS. However I fault them for being in some cases more ignorant than the typical windows user whom they mock.

[kosmosik]

Mac is just different. I don't like one buttoned mouse (yes I know you can connect normal mouse, but still f.e. in *book it is unconvinient), I don't like their design (seriously, I like IBM more - like ThinkPads or *Servers), MOX UI is functional but still has its annoyances (as f.e. no forward-delete key ([DEL]))... and so on... but I'll like to try Linux on PPC - especially with mac-on-linux feature, but yet still Linux on PPC has issues like f.e. no flash plugin (or ony 4.x compatible libswfdec based plugin), no accelerated display drivers, no drivers for certain devices... but it would be nice to own a *book to play a little with it :)

[kosmosik]

oh I remember when I went to our DTP company (which we outsource to do our graphics/art stuff) - their entire office runs macs, only about two windoze boxes due to compatibility and the rest is Mac... I remember their eyes when they saw me running putty on fullscreen and reading mail in pine... :D shocked.

[Jman]

Can you quote any Mac users saying this or are you just saying so? Here's some stories from people who like their Macs. (http://www.apple.com/switch/stories/)

Mac users must like Apple machines and software or they wouldn't pay a premimum for them.

[sailor]

I relate this issue to the BetaMax vs. VHS wars...the betamax was better video system yet the maufacturers/developement went with vhs ...this effectively killed sales of betamax and no one was turning out betamax media...
Mac/Apple same problem...too costly and limited software although I believe some of the best graphic and music software is for mac...windows is based on "borrowed" technology from Mac/Apple

[Shadow Skill]

Note..this is a comment on a zdnet news letter article, this post is sarcastic in nature 9I hope) and appears to be mocking the quoted persons assertion about status, class etc.: >If you want to drink your coffee out of styrofoam cups, eat on paper plates, and use plastic flatware while sitting in front of your eMachine, go ahead.

I'm with you. I was that slob eMachine user, but then I got the iMac. Now I drink champaign and have caviar dreams. I wear a tux when using my iMac and have developed style, that has to have come from the iMac. I guess it rubs off on you.

I now date a model. I am more succesfull, better looking and happier since getting my iMac. I guess you can say that all my troubles are now behind me and I've reached nirvana.

I gave my old eMachine to a co-worker. Since then he has been laid off, separated from his wife, and frankly become a real slob. I think the new 20" inch iMac might just turn his life around.
Posted by: bugmenot00 Posted on: 09/01/04

To answer the question posed above my comments were based on my experiences at the ipodlounge over some months. (3 or 4) You are more than free to look there, particularly in any thread that pertains to the Apple's firmware policy for legacy Ipods.

second post the one that the above was replying to: Art in a PC
If you want to drink your coffee out of styrofoam cups, eat on paper plates, and use plastic flatware while sitting in front of your eMachine, go ahead. After buying a Mac for the first time this year, all I can say is that G4 PowerMac MDD (mirrored drive doors) is beautiful and extremely well built and it is easy to work on too.

Hopefully, the same can be said for the stylish iMac. I personally share some of your feelings aroud the necessity of the design, but there are actually people who are not suckers, but just desire to be expressive through the choice of their PC's. I don't think I will ever buy one...will probably always be a PowerMac guy and if I get something smaller, it would be a PowerBook.

The same style and status as the iMac somewhat go along with the iPod which is one of the most costly mp3 players on the market. But after using several of the competitors, I finally bought a 40GB iPOD and simply find it is the highest quality, best sounding, most beautiful, and one of the most fuction/feature-rich models on the market.

Sucker? Yes, I guess if quality and expression entering into a buying decision makes you a sucker, then I guess Apple is looking for "suckers." Otherwise, I recommend everyone to buy the cheapest thing they can get.
Posted by: deepsnow Posted on: 09/01/04

I don't see how a whitewashed system is self expression when basically everything Apple makes is white................

[superbnerd]

I don't see how a whitewashed system is self expression when basically everything Apple makes is white. Thats exactly what I was thinking. mostly artist use macs...self expression... but everything they produce has the same look and feel. are we not getting something here. those mac marketing agents must be poioning the water becuase they seemed to be making a killing selling these individuallly unique machines based one hype and utter misconception. I undrstand that people buy macs for other reasons too, but if you want to customize you box's look, a pc is the way to go.

[Shadow Skill]

I know there are a few places that will paint macs but they can be overly expensive..same goes for getting a pc done too sadly. Well graphic designers (The only people who aren't just wasting their money aside from developers who use macs. create works of art on those expressionless machines, but the mac itself sure as hell doesn't provide much in the way of uniqueness that won't cost a boatload to get done nice. Is it really true that apple only makes a one button mouse?

[mark]

...Is it really true that apple only makes a one button mouse?I do recall that the one-button mouse was a much-touted "feature" of the original Macintosh (and its predecessor, the Lisa, I believe).

[superbnerd]

Is it really true that apple only makes a one button mouse? you have never experienced the rare and sort after inconvience of the mythical single button apple mouse? wow, your missing out on a lot! how can you critize macs before you have truly experienced how annoying they are?

[Shadow Skill]

well maybe back in elementary school (last time I used a mac.) but I dont remember that lol. Good thing real keyboards and mice are mac compatible like my bluetooth keyboard/mouse.

[superbnerd]

yeah, but the average (makority) of mac users don't get the full features input devices because they only go to the apple store, and thats all they see :(

[Ug]

I think thats a gross oversimplification of Mac users. A lot of Mac users I know are very bright capable people, but they generally like things to match.

You have your cool Apple G5, so you're gonna want a cool mouse and keyboard to match it. Right?

[superbnerd]

yeah, but they don't have a choice now do they, at least they don't know they do. and I don't mean they are stupib people, just ignorant computer users/shoppers in gerneral.

[Ug]

I disagree. Your applying a misguided stereotype to these people. Your also ignorant of the large number of third party hardware devices which are available to Mac users.

(Please also try to write coherently)

[superbnerd]

Your also ignorant of the large number of third party hardware devices which are available to Mac users. (emphasis added)
actually, if you carefully read my post, you would have understood that I am aware of the third party hardware available (macs use mostly commodity pc based parts now), but the users are usually clueless of the better performing, feature rich alternatives. thus, I say, they are ignorant.

[Ug]

I stand corrected.

But as I said, its a misguided stereotype. ;)

[imdeemvp]

most hardware use in pc's can also be use in mac's.......yes there is a large third party support. one thing that gets me upset is the price for parts (being from same vendor) are 50% or more higher then in pc's....

[Shadow Skill]

Are you serious, why would it be more expensive if it is the same part that is used within a PC? The only thing that I know of that is somewhat different is the CPU archetecture. (which is makes emulation of OSX on Pc's even more difficult.)

[superbnerd]

well imdeemvp ir right for the most part. if you go to buy your hardware (which is pc compatible) from an apple store, which is what the average mac user does (like a drone), you will charged more for it then if you went to say fry's or bought it online; however, most mac users don't know that their hardware is pc compliant and that they can get it cheeper.

[Ug]

superbnerd: your generalisations are unfair - stop them now.

[superbnerd]

actually I based them on experience with mac users and observations made of apple culture. is it not true the average mac user goes straight to the apple store and pay a premium?

[Shadow Skill]

I eould think that is what most people do who buy name brand PC's mac or otherwise, since essentially what they want you to buy is an item for the retail price (Which I strongly recommend against in almost all cases..except cpu purchase.) The Apple store is generally more expensive than places you would find online like Newegg, pricewatch etc...because they tack on tax and shipping (Learned never to shop at the apple store ever again after buying my 3g Ipod. I usually go there now to see if there is a new Ipod coming out, or to do comparisons between prices and laugh at the usually disgusting results I get.

I think that Superb's assertions are quite safe for the general user market that Apple does have when you consider the marketing strategy, the seemingly cultish nature of the consumer and general gravatation towards brand names that consumers exhibit, especially those not in the know or those who have not been taught how to smart shop.

[widesteps]

...I believe some of the best graphic and music software is for mac

I hear this a lot.

Now I am coming from the point of view of having no experience with macs, but what is this 'best graphics and music software' that can't be ported from one unix os (OSX) to another, linux or heaven forbid to windows which does have the largest market share. Surely the companies producing this software are missing out on a wealth of potential customers. And don't tell me Macs display/sound better!
:)

[Shadow Skill]

Well it is true that mac's are the standard for graphic design, I do agree with you though; however it is also true that Mac cpu's are different in some ways than x86 cpu's I am not sure about the specifics though. I heard it was one of the major difficulties facing a project trying to make an osx emulator for x86 machines.

I honestly am not sure about the music though. (If you are counting that POS Itunes in that category.)

[sailor]

but what is this 'best graphics and music software' that can't be ported from one unix os (OSX) to another

I am not a mac user either...so I am going by what I have read...apparently there are windows ports fo r the software....but the mac system is a 'better' system on which to run them...and Mac is the machine of choice in the business...maybe it isn't true anymore :p

[saBrEwolf]

because their sales are so bad they jack-up the price.....that's all


Its not that they don't get sales, they really are cheaper in the long run, they definitely last longer, I've had to buy new parts for my pc almost every year because of wear, bearing in mine these part were only a 2 years old. Whereas the Mac I use at school has been there since forever and has never had to be repaired. What they provide is a complete system that lasts.. I still prefer my pc overall tho' :)

[Prometheus]

lets face it, there is no such thing as an "average" mac user, just as there is no such thing as an "average" linux user. We are not your normal computer users, regardless of what os we choose to use. Mac's do their one thing, and in many cases have found better ways to utilize the hardware they have. In the oldis G4's, a 1.2 mhz mac processor out did a 2.5 mhz intel in various benchmarks. Part of it is the mac coding (using RISK), and part of it is the way the hardware responds to the info. I love mac's, was actually one of the first machines i used. Ahh yes, the days of OS6, and eventually migrating to 7.5 so i could have windows and mac on the same machine (verrrrrrrrrry early days of dual booting, except all you had to do was hit the little apple/propeller key and enter to switch between windows and mac, no rebooting at all, i loved it). Mac's are great at waht they do, and Mac's dont aim for the mainstream user. Why, because they know they wouldn't win many people over. Yeah, they did try that switch campaign a few years ago, but it didnt do jack. Mac users on the whole are not morons, not idiots, not opinionated (ok, some are), and are definately not hiding in their respetive shells, hiding from all other technology. I will say it again, there is no such thing as an "average" mac user. Just like there is no "average" linux user. If you think so, you're kidding yourself. Yes, there are those who are new to the os's, more experinced, adn the programmers, and those who can make the os do backflips at their whim, but there is no "average"

Well, that oughta do it. Love it, hate it, whatever, how i feel.

Prometheus

[Shadow Skill]

Your point is a falsehood in and of itself simply because most people do not posses the knowledge to attempt to use Linux outside of techies, and IT majors (I am not counting people who were practically raised on *nix.) most of the consumers of computer products do not posses the knowledge that we here posses. Apple doesn't aim at the typical consumer market (because of insane leadership IMO) in order to maintain thier closed hardware platform. (Again because of insane leadership IMO..they could almost crush windows just on the strength of OSX alone if they would just port the dammned OS to x86 machines.)

Coders and "power" users are simply not on the same level as the majority of consumers. Even Linux has an average user who is able to get most everything to work with little or no trouble at all (I personally have not reached this level yet, as reletively simple things still fustrate me.) there are of course different things one SHOULD know to be an average Linux user , than say a windows user. That is why the distinction is blurry at this point because those of us coming from the windows world are quite adept at the use of that OS, and have decided to try and in some cases migrate completely from Windows to the flaavor or flavors of our choice. (Can't wait for fc3...)

The most interesting thing is that you categorized users in much the same manner I did yet denied my classification when ours are all but identical...