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Nordmann
18th August 2008, 04:23 AM
Installed F9 without any big problems, tried to correct the video card to ATI Radon (have a HD 4850 Card) after correcting Dell 2405 monitor to LCD 1920 x 1200 which is the correct resolution (not 1600 x 1200).
Did the correction in 2 steps (after previous 3 tries which all locked up), reinstalled F9, monitor change went fine, basically nothing happened.
Changed video board to radon, re-booted and got to:Tom@localhost "]$
Tried to figure something out from the forum, tried "startx" answer does not exist.

What to do?, reinstall, go back to windows and wait for the process to be simplified so anybody can get the right drivers in.
Or, is there a simple way that an old none programmer can understand.

:mad:

Hlingler
18th August 2008, 04:36 AM
There is some reason why the desired 1920x1200 resolution is being rejected.

Re-trace your steps, un-do whatever you did, and get back to a working desktop. Then attach the file: /var/log/Xorg.0.log to a post. We'll see why it's choking on that resolution.

BTW, what's wrong with 1600x1200? Just curious - 1600x1200 sounds pretty good to me....

V

robatino
18th August 2008, 06:04 AM
BTW, what's wrong with 1600x1200? Just curious - 1600x1200 sounds pretty good to me....


For one thing, 1080i HDTV is 1920x1080, so it requires downscaling the image, which besides losing resolution is pretty CPU-intensive - I only have a 1280x1024 monitor and my CPU goes close to 100% in 1080i mode, but only about 50% in 720p mode (1280x720) which doesn't need to be downscaled.

Hlingler
18th August 2008, 06:20 AM
Ah, I see. Thanks for explaining that - now it makes much more sense. I can see why the higher resolution would be necessary.

So, do you also have any insight into how the OP can correct his problem?

V

Nordmann
18th August 2008, 07:41 AM
As you probably know LCD screens have fixed pixels, they do not look right unless they have the right resolution, why spend money on a 24 inch screen and not being able to use it right, actually looking at 30 inch, so I will either have to stay with windows, or find a solution to this.
Like stated, I know mechanics, but with software I have some real problems in seeing logic.

How do I retrace my steps and undo thing when I can not get into the computer with F9.
How do I attach a file and post it, all I did was to use whatever was loaded with the program

Hlingler
18th August 2008, 07:59 PM
Try to get back to a functional GUI by doing the following:
> If you are at (or can get to) a virtual terminal (the prompt: [Tom@localhost ~]$), log in as root user;
> move the xorg.conf file out of the way:
mv /etc/x11/xorg.conf /etc/X11/xorg.cong.borked
> re-boot, and see if X11/Xorg can sort things out and get you into a working GUI/desktop using default settings.
> Either way, if it succeeds or not, attach the log file /var/log/Xorg.0.log to a post; do not use the "Quick Post" feature - use the "Reply Topic" button to get to a full vBulletin posting page where you will find a feature to "Manage Attachments", and attach said file. You will need to rename it with extension: .txt to allow attachment.

The log file should provide clues as to what is going wrong.

V

Nordmann
19th August 2008, 03:25 AM
Try to get back to a functional GUI by doing the following:
> If you are at (or can get to) a virtual terminal (the prompt: [Tom@localhost ~]$), log in as root user;
> move the xorg.conf file out of the way:
mv /etc/x11/xorg.conf /etc/X11/xorg.cong.borked
> re-boot, and see if X11/Xorg can sort things out and get you into a working GUI/desktop using default settings.
> Either way, if it succeeds or not, attach the log file /var/log/Xorg.0.log to a post; do not use the "Quick Post" feature - use the "Reply Topic" button to get to a full vBulletin posting page where you will find a feature to "Manage Attachments", and attach said file. You will need to rename it with extension: .txt to allow attachment.

The log file should provide clues as to what is going wrong.

V
Chickened out truing to follow your instructions as I newer used command line.
Solved problem temporary, reinstalled F9 with Livna.org as a extra source, changed the F9 listing for Dell 2405 monitor from incorrect 1600 x 1200 to correct 1920 x 1200 (why does it list incorrect), by setting it up as a LCD 1920x1200, however now display still indicates 1600x1200.

Will not try to change video card from indicated ATI Unknown to a radon card, unless we can figure a way to do this without bringing the computer down.

Do not really want to go back to Vista, but if Linux can not be made to run properly that is the only choise.

Bought SUSE several times in hope that if I paid for the software they would help, they tried but did no make it work. Vista has brought back a more urgent wish for getting out of Windows, unfortunately Linux still seems too immature for use in common computers by none programmers, unless you have an old computer with limited capabilities.

What to do next?

Hlingler
19th August 2008, 03:34 AM
Chickened out truing to follow your instructions as I newer used command line.
Solved problem temporary, reinstalled F9 with Livna.org as a extra source, changed the F9 listing for Dell 2405 monitor from incorrect 1600 x 1200 to correct 1920 x 1200 (why does it list incorrect), by setting it up as a LCD 1920x1200, however now display still indicates 1600x1200.

Will not try to change video card from indicated ATI Unknown to a radon card, unless we can figure a way to do this without bringing the computer down.

Do not really want to go back to Vista, but if Linux can not be made to run properly that is the only choise.

Bought SUSE several times in hope that if I paid for the software they would help, they tried but did no make it work. Vista has brought back a more urgent wish for getting out of Windows, unfortunately Linux still seems too immature for use in common computers by none programmers, unless you have an old computer with limited capabilities.

What to do next?Attach the /var/log/Xorg.0.log to a post as requested, so we can see WHY it's rejecting that resolution.

V

Nokia
19th August 2008, 03:36 AM
Linux is not immature !:cool:

As there's no intention from ATI to actively support X in F9, until F10 rolls out the ONLY thing you can do is to go back and install F8+Livna drivers. It will be OK then for 1920x1200.

Nokia
19th August 2008, 03:38 AM
Vince, Vesa driver shows a pretty distorted screen in 1920x1200, because of wrong refresh rates IMO, but I could be wrong :)

Nordmann
19th August 2008, 07:41 AM
Again, we come up against lack of knowledge and experience working outside the graphical environment.

I do not know how to get the requested file, and no idea what "post" involves, is there a detailed description or instruction how to do so?
I do not know what will happen if I tell it to use the radon driver for the card, but I assume it will go back to being stuck.

Nordmann
19th August 2008, 07:49 AM
Call it what you want, but having to be a programmer to use something in this day and age seems to be somewhat behind the goal posts.

The card vendors probably blame it on Linux and Linux blames it on the vendors, in the mean time Linux loses on of the biggest opportunities in years.
Unless you can simply install upgrades, the windows crowd is not going to switch, unfortunately we pay the sane for the cards that they provide windows drivers to, while more or less ignoring Linux.
On the other hand if Linux vendors could get their thing together and have one standard system for compression and drivers, it wold greatly benefit everybody.

Nordmann
19th August 2008, 07:52 AM
You are probably right, with SUSE, when I was able to get the correct resolution, I had double pictures, or just squiggly lines.

robatino
19th August 2008, 08:03 AM
Again, we come up against lack of knowledge and experience working outside the graphical environment.

I do not know how to get the requested file, and no idea what "post" involves, is there a detailed description or instruction how to do so?
I do not know what will happen if I tell it to use the radon driver for the card, but I assume it will go back to being stuck.

When replying, under "Additional Options", see "Attach Files" and "Manage Attachments". Unfortunately, it's somewhat brain-dead and insists on screening files based on suffix, and .log isn't one of the allowed ones, so you have to make a copy of the file with a different suffix. Open a terminal window (Applications/System Tools/Terminal) and run

cp /var/log/Xorg.0.log ~/Xorg.0.log.txt

which makes a copy of the file in your home directory with the name Xorg.0.log.txt. Then you should be able to attach this file.

Edit: Sorry, to get to "Additional Options" you have to click on "Go Advanced" first.

Nordmann
19th August 2008, 08:31 PM
When replying, under "Additional Options", see "Attach Files" and "Manage Attachments". Unfortunately, it's somewhat brain-dead and insists on screening files based on suffix, and .log isn't one of the allowed ones, so you have to make a copy of the file with a different suffix. Open a terminal window (Applications/System Tools/Terminal) and run

cp /var/log/Xorg.0.log ~/Xorg.0.log.txt

which makes a copy of the file in your home directory with the name Xorg.0.log.txt. Then you should be able to attach this file.

Edit: Sorry, to get to "Additional Options" you have to click on "Go Advanced" first.
I do appreciate all of you trying to help, but mostly you make assumptions about my knowledge, most of what you say I lose in the second sentence, being a total stranger to anything but the graphic inter face.
I have no problems with assembling complicated machinery, which I understand well, it has a structure that I understand from experience.
With software I have no experience to build on, do not know how to get to your quoted start point, then you make jumps (assumptions) leaving me hanging.
Remember that unfortunately all of this correspondence is done in Vista, I assume that I would need set up F9 to do all that you ask?

Nordmann
20th August 2008, 04:52 AM
There is some reason why the desired 1920x1200 resolution is being rejected.

Re-trace your steps, un-do whatever you did, and get back to a working desktop. Then attach the file: /var/log/Xorg.0.log to a post. We'll see why it's choking on that resolution.

BTW, what's wrong with 1600x1200? Just curious - 1600x1200 sounds pretty good to me....

V
Tried to copy and paste requested file, got a message that it was too long and it was chopped down from 1600 words down to 1000.

Is there anything I could do with a fresh reinstall (formatting and all) that would correct this problem?

Nokia
20th August 2008, 11:57 AM
Tried to copy and paste requested file, got a message that it was too long and it was chopped down from 1600 words down to 1000.

Is there anything I could do with a fresh reinstall (formatting and all) that would correct this problem?

The ONLY safe method for your particular case has been posted in #9 :rolleyes:

glennzo
20th August 2008, 12:40 PM
Nordman, many years ago I got a job in the automatic transmission repair business. Day 1 I basically had no clue how to repair these things but I was extremely interested and as time passed I moved from R&R man (remove and re-install) to learning to rebuild these complicated machines. More time passed and I eventually became, if I may say so, very good at it. I moved from the "floor" to the "bench" as a full time rebuilder. Spent 20+ years in that business.

Years ago I found a CD, Calderra Linux. As a basically happy Windows 3.1 user I was passively curious about this Linux thing. "What's Linux" I thought. So I installed it, several times I might add. I was rewarded with a black screen with a prompt asking me to login:. I looked at that and thought "what the h*ll am I going to do with ths?" But I persisted. I wanted this thing to work, as I did with my rebuilt transmissions. Persistence paid off and, longer story short, here I am today, happily using Fedora 99.9% of the time. I'm far from a Linux expert but I'm usually able to get everything working, in time, and with help from the fine people here in the Fedora Forum.

Linux doesn't "just work". You need to assemble it. You need to build it. One step at a time in many cases. You need to test your changes to make sure they work properly or that piece of machinery isn't going to work right. You might break a bolt or two, might be an oil leak here and there or the whole thing might just blow up while you watch. Go back and fix it and make it work.

You had a desire, an interest and a curiosity when you were younger to work with machinery and learn how to repair and assemble these machines, as did I with automobiles. I'd bet you were very successful in your chosen field. I'd also bet that you didn't know jack your first year or two, like me. If you want to get the most out of any flavor of Linux you need to have that same desire.

Hey, look at it this way. Once you get this display issue ironed out you can help the next person with the same problem and be the resident expert in the field.

Don't mean to preach here. I'm sure I'm basically telling you something you already know, especially if you've got a few years under your belt. Just expressing my thoughts on what I see in these few posts.

I'll shut up now. :)

Nordmann
20th August 2008, 04:05 PM
Attach the /var/log/Xorg.0.log to a post as requested, so we can see WHY it's rejecting that resolution.

V
Copied the file and changed the name to ".txt" still not able to attach it, how do I get to the point where it can be attached?

How can Nokia state that F10 will support this and F8 does, I basically need something to work in a way that I can use it and read the small fonts, that gets distorted at 1600x 1200.

I basicall made a copy of the file and clicked on "manage attachments" but nothing came up.

Hlingler
20th August 2008, 04:15 PM
If nothing came up when you clicked on "Manage Attachments", then you may not have java and/or java script enabled in your web browser. Check your browser settings, enable java/java script, then try again: you should get a pop-up window that allows you to browse your machine to find the file that you want to attach.

If that doesn't work, try posting it on pastebin.com, and give us the URL link.

V

Nordmann
20th August 2008, 04:25 PM
Glenn,

Appreciate your words, but I am in somewhat of a corner here, need to get this working before I leave the country for a few weeks, and before the 1 month Vista limit expires. My understanding was that Linux has no reached the point where it can be compared to Windows, and used by people not into programming.
I am sure that you will agree that we can not all be experts on everything, and my strength is in the mechanical side of things, I have a more than full time job supporting industrial filters (drugs and liquor) as we say, actually chemical, pharmaceutical, food, beer and wine filtration, all that anything with liquid/solids separation.
In that field I have worked on torque converters and simple transmissions.

Anyway I appreciate you words, maybe since I have been building computers for 15 years, I should get more into what makes the compute, but for right now I need one that works outside the Windows environment (have you tried 64 bit Vista, it is really bad to work with).

Tom

Sometimes powered by F9

Nordmann
20th August 2008, 04:30 PM
If nothing came up when you clicked on "Manage Attachments", then you may not have java and/or java script enabled in your web browser. Check your browser settings, enable java/java script, then try again: you should get a pop-up window that allows you to browse your machine to find the file that you want to attach.

If that doesn't work, try posting it on pastebin.com, and give us the URL link.

V
Java script is activated, will try pastebin.com, however how do I give you and URL and what is it?

Hlingler
20th August 2008, 04:33 PM
The "URL" is the web site address that you see in the address bar of the browser, such as for this page: http://forums.fedoraforum.org/forum/showthread.php?t=197079&page=2

Just copy-and-paste (or manually tpye in) to a post the address where the pastebin file is located.

V

P.S. At this point, you may also want to consider trying another Linux distribution that is more "user-friendly" and stable (has a longer support cycle and not as frequently changed). I almost hate to open up that idea, because both opinions and Linux flavors are extremely various, but Ubuntu has a reputation of being very "user-friendly" and easy to set up and "just works".

glennzo
20th August 2008, 04:42 PM
Glenn,

Appreciate your words, but I am in somewhat of a corner here, need to get this working before I leave the country for a few weeks, and before the 1 month Vista limit expires. My understanding was that Linux has no reached the point where it can be compared to Windows, and used by people not into programming.
I am sure that you will agree that we can not all be experts on everything, and my strength is in the mechanical side of things, I have a more than full time job supporting industrial filters (drugs and liquor) as we say, actually chemical, pharmaceutical, food, beer and wine filtration, all that anything with liquid/solids separation.
In that field I have worked on torque converters and simple transmissions.

Anyway I appreciate you words, maybe since I have been building computers for 15 years, I should get more into what makes the compute, but for right now I need one that works outside the Windows environment (have you tried 64 bit Vista, it is really bad to work with).

Tom

Sometimes powered by F9
I understand Tom. I hesitated in posting that message. I didn't want it to appear that I was lecturing you on what you probably already knew, after all, if I were sitting in front of your computer I'd bet that I wouldn't have any more luck that you've had to date. Additionally, I surely didn't want to offend you or appear insensitive to your position. Glad you took my comments in stride and best of luck with that display :)

The issues we have with our computers are severely magnified when time is short, no?

Nordmann
20th August 2008, 04:45 PM
If nothing came up when you clicked on "Manage Attachments", then you may not have java and/or java script enabled in your web browser. Check your browser settings, enable java/java script, then try again: you should get a pop-up window that allows you to browse your machine to find the file that you want to attach.

If that doesn't work, try posting it on pastebin.com, and give us the URL link.

V
Java is activated in my browser, however posted it on pastebin under Nordmann, hopefully you can get it there.

Hlingler
20th August 2008, 04:51 PM
Ummm... unfortunately, no, I can't find it with only your name to go by. The pages are code-keyed with addresses like: http://pastebin.com/d65c4c700

V

Nordmann
20th August 2008, 04:52 PM
The "URL" is the web site address that you see in the address bar of the browser, such as for this page: http://forums.fedoraforum.org/forum/showthread.php?t=197079&page=2

Just copy-and-paste (or manually tpye in) to a post the address where the pastebin file is located.

V

P.S. At this point, you may also want to consider trying another Linux distribution that is more "user-friendly" and stable (has a longer support cycle and not as frequently changed). I almost hate to open up that idea, because both opinions and Linux flavors are extremely various, but Ubuntu has a reputation of being very "user-friendly" and easy to set up and "just works".
I have tried Umbutu, but the partition part is not very good (have 4 hard drives, between 200 and 500 GB), and actually F9 seem to be the better solution, I would say that SUSE 11.0 would be the alternative as they have a very good partition set up, but runs into a wall with settings, and KDE 4 is presently not very good.
I will give F9 on more shot before looking for alternatives.

Nordmann
20th August 2008, 05:07 PM
I have tried Umbutu, but the partition part is not very good (have 4 hard drives, between 200 and 500 GB), and actually F9 seem to be the better solution, I would say that SUSE 11.0 would be the alternative as they have a very good partition set up, but runs into a wall with settings, and KDE 4 is presently not very good.
I will give F9 on more shot before looking for alternatives.
It is from what i understand:
hppt://pastebin.com/m2b735dd0

Hlingler
20th August 2008, 05:34 PM
OK, I'll try to explain the situation:

ATI HD 4850 is a very new chipset. Your machine is using the ultra-generic "VESA" video driver, because there simply is no other driver available to support that chipset. Without digging into the details, I suspect that the desired resolution is not supported by that driver.

The standard "radeon" driver (xorg-x11-drv-radeon) does not support that chipset.

There is a new, experimental driver for "HD" class chipsets under development. You can install it, and see if it works:
yum install xorg-x11-drv-radeonhd

Then use "Display Manager" to choose that driver.

HOWEVER:DESCRIPTION
radeonhd is an Xorg driver for AMD GPG (ATI) R5xx/R6xx based video cards.

RADEONHD is still very much work in progress.

At the time of this writing, radeonhd has the following major limitations:

NO support for 2D & 3D acceleration, no support for Xvideo.

No TV, Component, and HDMI connector support so far.

Suspend & Resume is pretty much untested. Often it just works, but your milage may vary.

After using the fglrx driver, the display can get very jittery with radeonhd. Also suspend & resume will probably fail. A reboot
fixes this problem in most cases, sometimes a powercycle is necessary. Unloading the kernel module is typically not enough.

A more up-to-date list can be found on the wiki page.Plus, your chipset is not listed as supported yet, so you may very likely get: nothing.

Finally, the proprietary ATI "FGLRX" driver has not yet been updated to work with F9's X11/Xorg, so it won't work either, unless you downgrade the whole X11 window system to F8.

Your choices appear to be:
> Attempt driver radeonhd, see what happens. You may get a working GUI, more likely not, even if you do, no acceleration, expect other problems.
> Downgrade X11/Xorg to F8 and install proprietary "FGLRX" driver. Known to work well. Not easy for someone not familiar with such operations.
> Use as is with VESA driver.
> Re-install with F8 and then install "FGLRX" driver.

V

Hlingler
20th August 2008, 05:52 PM
Your Xorg.0.log shows that 1920x1440 resolution is supported. You could try adjusting to that resolution with "Display Manager".

V

Nordmann
20th August 2008, 06:01 PM
OK, I'll try to explain the situation:

ATI HD 4850 is a very new chipset. Your machine is using the ultra-generic "VESA" video driver, because there simply is no other driver available to support that chipset. Without digging into the details, I suspect that the desired resolution is not supported by that driver.

The standard "radeon" driver (xorg-x11-drv-radeon) does not support that chipset.

There is a new, experimental driver for "HD" class chipsets under development. You can install it, and see if it works:
yum install xorg-x11-drv-radeonhd

Then use "Display Manager" to choose that driver.

HOWEVER:DESCRIPTION
radeonhd is an Xorg driver for AMD GPG (ATI) R5xx/R6xx based video cards.

RADEONHD is still very much work in progress.

At the time of this writing, radeonhd has the following major limitations:

NO support for 2D & 3D acceleration, no support for Xvideo.

No TV, Component, and HDMI connector support so far.

Suspend & Resume is pretty much untested. Often it just works, but your milage may vary.

After using the fglrx driver, the display can get very jittery with radeonhd. Also suspend & resume will probably fail. A reboot
fixes this problem in most cases, sometimes a powercycle is necessary. Unloading the kernel module is typically not enough.

A more up-to-date list can be found on the wiki page.Plus, your chipset is not listed as supported yet, so you may very likely get: nothing.

Finally, the proprietary ATI "FGLRX" driver has not yet been updated to work with F9's X11/Xorg, so it won't work either, unless you downgrade the whole X11 window system to F8.

Your choices appear to be:
> Attempt driver radeonhd, see what happens. You may get a working GUI, more likely not, even if you do, no acceleration, expect other problems.
> Downgrade X11/Xorg to F8 and install proprietary "FGLRX" driver. Known to work well. Not easy for someone not familiar with such operations.
> Use as is with VESA driver.
> Re-install with F8 and then install "FGLRX" driver.

V
Thank you for your efforts, I will evaluate what to do, it looks like F8 or SUSE 11.00.
How long until F10?

I also have an ATI 1800 and a Nvidia 9800 card, will any of these work (preferably the ATI 1800) with the present drivers, or how far back (down do I have to go on ATI cards? I might have some even older ones laying around.
The problem is that the already installed Vista will consider this to be a new computer and refuse to work.

Again I do thank you for your support, I will let you know where this ends up.

Hlingler
20th August 2008, 06:08 PM
From what I can see on the DRI wiki (http://dri.freedesktop.org/wiki/ATIRadeon) and from reading 'man radeon', the ATI X1800 should "Just Work™" out-of-the-box with the standard radeon driver. You should be able to plug that card in, start Fedora, and it should all just happen automatically.

You didn't want to keep Vista much longer anyways, so this will give you an excuse to spend more time learning Linux. :D

V

P.S. You could probably get the NVidia card going too, but you'd need the proprietary driver to get 3D/DRI/OpenGL support, which can be a headache, so I'd stick with ATI X1800 for now.

Nordmann
20th August 2008, 07:45 PM
From what I can see on the DRI wiki (http://dri.freedesktop.org/wiki/ATIRadeon) and from reading 'man radeon', the ATI X1800 should "Just Work™" out-of-the-box with the standard radeon driver. You should be able to plug that card in, start Fedora, and it should all just happen automatically.

You didn't want to keep Vista much longer anyways, so this will give you an excuse to spend more time learning Linux. :D

V

P.S. You could probably get the NVidia card going too, but you'd need the proprietary driver to get 3D/DRI/OpenGL support, which can be a headache, so I'd stick with ATI X1800 for now.
Again, Thank you,

Will switch down to the old ATI 1800 card and wait for F10 to catch up to the HD 4850, hopefully it will be this year, did not like to switch to NVidia, it sits in a computer I just built for my son, but to put him on to F9 I will have to dig out one of the the older ATI cards, just hope they are the right bus..

There are a lot of things I would like to learn, but today the developments in my own area are such that it is a full time job just to stay current.

Nokia
20th August 2008, 10:00 PM
Nordmann, just throw the Nvidia card in and do su -

rpm -Uhv http://rpm.livna.org/livna-release-9.rpm

yum --enablerepo=livna-testing install xorg-x11-drv-nvidia xorg-x11-drv-nvidia-libs akmod-nvidia

akmods --kernels `uname -r`

nvidia-config-display enable

service nvidia restart and you should be fine al least till F10 is released.

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