First Topic: Fedora 10 taste?

[LDC]

so the great question is: will Fedora 10 be as cutting edge as Fedora 9?
F9 has many "experimental" feats, also beta things here and there.... and F10?

[jtang613]

In a word: yes.
See: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Overview

[LDC]

ehm, that link is a general (and well known) overview of the fedora project, not a (as required) cutting edge comparison between f9 and f10 :)

[jtang613]

so the great question is: will Fedora 10 be as cutting edge as Fedora 9?
F9 has many "experimental" feats, also beta things here and there.... and F10?
It answers your question.
But if you're so familiar with the wiki, surely you are also aware of: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/10/FeatureList

[Nokia]

@LDC

Grab the next Alpha, scheduled for tomorrow afaik, do a review and post it here. :D

[LDC]

@jtang613: that is well known too, and still not a comparison, but I appreciate your try :)

@nokia: uhuh ol' fellas detected ahead :D you're kiddin', I have barely the time to press the "update" button, so my contribution to the fedora community is still limited to the production of wallpapers. Also, and maybe more important, if things goes as for F9 my review would be misleading (as you may have read somewhere in the forum, I had NO crashes with F9, after bending it to my will -and it was very wild- it went so smooth I can't believe my eyes).
I can write: "wow, F10 is rock solid, fast and reliable"... but thousands of people may yell at me at once :DDD So I think I am not suited for this kind of tasks :D

[Nokia]

Old fella ? More like New Kid on (Fedora's) Block :D

[LDC]

Old fella ? More like New Kid on (Fedora's) Block :D
nah nah, you were the first one to greet me in this community, so you're the older of oldest olds :p

[jtang613]

Perhaps your question is best directed to the actual developers and not the users. Try asking on one of the mailing lists. Or like has already been wisely suggested - do the comparison yourself and report your findings.

[moxie]

I am excited about so many things in f10, but mainly, looking forward to the newer version of gnome. I am hoping the new icons and praying for some new panel options/themes.

[Nokia]

Hmmm, there's not much to be excited about. Tabbed Nautilus ?

[scottro]

WOW!!! TABBED NAUTILUS!!! Erm, wait a sec, I don't use Nautilus.

I've been running Rawhide, which for the past two days hasn't worked in X, only console. :)

There's some kind of new boot up thing, more like Ubuntu's but a different color.

Sound still doesn't seem to work properly unless you use Gnome.

The usual.

[Nokia]

@scottro

I saw it in a Ubuntu 8.10 Alpha X review on Softpedia :)

[LDC]

Ubudora? :S

[Nokia]

Feduntu :cool:

Now get back to the drawing board and do a thing usable on both distros :p

[LDC]

Feduntu :cool:
why not Febuntu?

Now get back to the drawing board and do a thing usable on both distros :p
I think "mkfs -c" should be the way.... :p

[Demz]

WOW!!! TABBED NAUTILUS!!! Erm, wait a sec, I don't use Nautilus.

I've been running Rawhide, which for the past two days hasn't worked in X, only console. :)

There's some kind of new boot up thing, more like Ubuntu's but a different color.

Sound still doesn't seem to work properly unless you use Gnome.

The usual.
states in my Thread that its not working properly.. the alpha may slip by a week or 2 depending on the outcome of the meeting that was held

But i dont think fedora10 will bring much New stuff, it'll just be Bug Fix's from Fedora9 thats all

[kevmif]

I'm hoping for a much more polished release. F9 introduced so many new and experimental features (lets face it, x-server was barely stable and pulseaudio has caused some users a world of pain).

F10 - Cambridge at this stage doesn't have too many experimental features. RPM 4.6 should be an incremental step forward and shouldn't really have any impact - all of the other stuff is mainly addons, though glitch free pulse audio is one that I am following closely.

Compare this to all of the features crammed into F9. Prerelease version of x-server, firefox 3 beta. new GDM, GCC4.3, upstart, KDE4.0, network manager etc etc. F9 was a HUGE testing ground. F10 should be more incremental and less evolutionary and hopefully much more polished.

[LDC]

you're right, so F10 will be less "cutting edge", so I will keep my hopes for F11 :D

[Demz]

you're right, so F10 will be less "cutting edge", so I will keep my hopes for F11 :D
i think Fedora11 will just be Bug Fix's cause there wont be much newer stuff to go in to that release anyway untill maybe fedora14

[LDC]

i think Fedora11 will just be Bug Fix's cause there wont be much newer stuff to go in to that release anyway untill maybe fedora14
argh you gotta be kiddin' :eek:

[ivancat]

i think Fedora11 will just be Bug Fix's cause there wont be much newer stuff to go in to that release anyway untill maybe fedora14

Well, there are always new versions of Firefox and GNOME available (and of course some other products too) :) So I think there'll always be something bleeding edge, not just a bunch of bugfixes

[Demz]

argh you gotta be kiddin' :eek:
you'll basically only get updates of Firefox an Gnome/KDE thats about it

Well, there are always new versions of Firefox and GNOME available (and of course some other products too) :) So I think there'll always be something bleeding edge, not just a bunch of bugfixes i think it'll only be Bug Fix's after Fedora10 , but i'd prefer to see More Bug fix's than More features

[ivancat]

i think it'll only be Bug Fix's after Fedora10 , but i'd prefer to see More Bug fix's than More features

bugfixes, bugfixes... well, getting only bugfixes results in a rock stable and reliable system, but the one with (not so, but quite) old packages, let's say like cent os. First, this is (in my opinion) does not suit the ideology of fedora being the bleeding edge and, in fact, a testing lab for red hat. Another problem here that may pop up: if you release only bugfixes (which can be distributed through any update system as well) what is the point of such a short life cycle? So you see, fedora either'll have to change its ideology or try stick to it and try to bring the latest testing software to you with each release

[kevmif]

Fedora 10 WILL have new features. My point was that the feature set and underlying changes that we saw in F9 were HUGE hence a lot of the problems.

F10 has some exciting new features which will again prove that Fedora is a cutting edge distro - however it won't be anything like the groundbreaking changes we saw in F9.

Fedora will always be doing new things, there will never be a bugfix only release. However as the featureset for F10 is somewhat smaller and less groundbreaking there will hopefully be more room for improvement.

[Anniedog]

Cant resist this thread and although I have no actual basis for saying this other than my own actual experience "odds on the edge evens actually quite boring". I have only been using since FC5 but this is what I have experienced in the last few years.

FC5: Alot of general glitches and hardware issues to sort before getting running.
Verdict: Real hassles

FC6: Easier set up and much improved wireless and samba networking.
Verdict: No real hassles

F7: A total no go on any of my amd boxes. Could only get this one to run i386 on intels.
Verdict: Real hassles

F8: This was a really good release for x86_64 intels. Still some major issues with amd,s though found workaround for this. This was the easiest set up I had experienced.
Vedict: No hassles once installed very good.

F9: Well major hassles with networking and several other really basic operating system requirements, took a good few weeks from the release date to get settled down. Still a work in progress.
Verdict: Real hassles to get set up many bugs in the first spin, this was actually the least useable release to date but actually now turning into a very good release.

So my point is I am expecting 10 to be a little boring and easy if things continue as I have experienced them. I will look to F11 for the major next fun release :)

Edit

Actually if I consider things generally. It would be difficult to predict what will be next major thing. It seems to me that the basic foundation is now there, indeed was there in f8, and it remains mainly the hardware compatibility issues that continue to cause most grief. Reading between the lines I suspect that security may well be an area major focus and I expect that even more graphical configuration will be available for the desktop user. Though the best thing is you really cannot predict, after F8 I really did not expect F9.http://forums.fedoraforum.org/forum/images/icons/icon10.gif. So who knows?

[LDC]

I hope that f11 will crash when downloading the iso, THAT's being _really_ cuttin' edge.

[ivancat]

maybe maybe, what concerns F10, the alpha is available :)

here's the link: http://download.fedoraproject.org/pub/fedora/linux/releases/test/10-Alpha/

grab it and start bleeding on the edge right since today %)

[iamvoyager]

Cant resist this thread and although I have no actual basis for saying this other than my own actual experience "odds on the edge evens actually quite boring". I have only been using since FC5 but this is what I have experienced in the last few years.

FC5: Alot of general glitches and hardware issues to sort before getting running.
Verdict: Real hassles

FC6: Easier set up and much improved wireless and samba networking.
Verdict: No real hassles

F7: A total no go on any of my amd boxes. Could only get this one to run i386 on intels.
Verdict: Real hassles

F8: This was a really good release for x86_64 intels. Still some major issues with amd,s though found workaround for this. This was the easiest set up I had experienced.
Vedict: No hassles once installed very good.

F9: Well major hassles with networking and several other really basic operating system requirements, took a good few weeks from the release date to get settled down. Still a work in progress.
Verdict: Real hassles to get set up many bugs in the first spin, this was actually the least useable release to date but actually now turning into a very good release.

So my point is I am expecting 10 to be a little boring and easy if things continue as I have experienced them. I will look to F11 for the major next fun release :)

Edit

Actually if I consider things generally. It would be difficult to predict what will be next major thing. It seems to me that the basic foundation is now there, indeed was there in f8, and it remains mainly the hardware compatibility issues that continue to cause most grief. Reading between the lines I suspect that security may well be an area major focus and I expect that even more graphical configuration will be available for the desktop user. Though the best thing is you really cannot predict, after F8 I really did not expect F9.http://forums.fedoraforum.org/forum/images/icons/icon10.gif. So who knows?

So Fedora releases are like the Star Trek movies? Every even numbered one is really good?

[Demz]

So Fedora releases are like the Star Trek movies? Every even numbered one is really good?
not really no,, bout the same as every other release

[sideways]

F10 will be a milestone release, just because it's number 10. It has to be solid, it has to be impressive. They returned to "roots" with the "Cambridge" codename (http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/Names) and a lot of future prestige will hang on the performance of this release, this should represent the achievements of 5 years on this distro project, for all the world to see.

Hence the reason for playing it safe.

Downloading alpha release now, I note that i386 dvd < 4GB and x86_64 dvd > 4GB. I will plead for < 4GB x86_64 dvd image, so it can be installed from a 4gb usb stick, wish me luck. :)

[ivancat]

Downloading alpha release now, I note that i386 dvd < 4GB and x86_64 dvd > 4GB. I will plead for < 4GB x86_64 dvd image, so it can be installed from a 4gb usb stick, wish me luck. :)

Best of luck :) Hope to hear your first impressions soon

[Demz]

i think im gonna wait till the Beta till i try it out on my system

Anyone got some screenshots of this new Plymouth

[fosster]

i think im gonna wait till the Beta till i try it out on my system

Anyone got some screenshots of this new Plymouth

There's a screencast at

http://katzj.livejournal.com/432586.html

I don't know how much it's changed since that was posted.

[scottro]

Well, the latest rawhide fixed the problems I had with X. As I think I've said, I've been running rawhide for awhile, and though it breaks from time to time, most things have been working reasonably well, fixed within a few days at most, and often, far more quickly.

[Demz]

There's a screencast at

http://katzj.livejournal.com/432586.html

I don't know how much it's changed since that was posted.
thanks for link

[kevmif]

Dunno about you lot, but one of the first things I do is remove RHGB and replace it with VGA=788 or something similar depending on configuration.

I don't see the point in a graphical boot to be honest. Yeah it adds that 'polished' effect - but I don't think most of us use Fedora for a polished look hehe! Besides, I like my boot messages.

Oh and speaking of which, since first trying the F9 beta - I havn't had shutdown messages - can anyone shed some light as to why??? Something to do with upstart i'll bet!

[RahulSundaram]

Hi,

Control+Alt+F7 if you want the shutdown messages. Yes, it is upstart related and already reported in bugzilla

[bob]

Hmmm...must be going blind, because I can't find the sha1sum for the DVD. I gave it a shot on the direct download and come up with bad data on the media check. Before I dump my 3 hour download, I'd like to verify that it's not just a bad burn.

[ivancat]

Hmmm...must be going blind, because I can't find the sha1sum for the DVD. I gave it a shot on the direct download and come up with bad data on the media check. Before I dump my 3 hour download, I'd like to verify that it's not just a bad burn.

that's the one for i386:

Hash: SHA1

21cd0507565458920c142309becade5d93cb4c71 *Fedora-10-Alpha-i386-DVD.iso
14ef750ec30eb14f3f78fb7aa59fb242ddcf8486 *Fedora-10-Alpha-i386-netinst.iso


that's for x86_64


Hash: SHA1

b5e8d4a49fe4cf82b544d94fb397671b1e31d627 *Fedora-10-Alpha-x86_64-DVD.iso
00dc11a13aa0896a5d0eb1e4677156095a948034 *Fedora-10-Alpha-x86_64-netinst.iso

[bob]

Thanks, Ivan. That matches mine, so I'll verify the burn next time and give the install another try. Glad someone's got decent eyesight. :p Edit: Sad to say, but both the DVD and the Live CD versions are failing on my system. The Live CD reports sector errors and the DVD simply fails the media test. Got to check those drives for errors, I guess.

[JN4OldSchool]

Dunno about you lot, but one of the first things I do is remove RHGB and replace it with VGA=788 or something similar depending on configuration.

I don't see the point in a graphical boot to be honest. Yeah it adds that 'polished' effect - but I don't think most of us use Fedora for a polished look hehe! Besides, I like my boot messages.

Oh and speaking of which, since first trying the F9 beta - I havn't had shutdown messages - can anyone shed some light as to why??? Something to do with upstart i'll bet!

I actually do prefer the graphical boot for one reason. It catches my eye more when something DOES go wrong! When something doesnt check out it will switch back to the boot list and this catches my eye more than just a red failed message.

[iamvoyager]

I actually do prefer the graphical boot for one reason. It catches my eye more when something DOES go wrong! When something doesnt check out it will switch back to the boot list and this catches my eye more than just a red failed message.

I agree exactly. It shouldn't look "ugly" unless there's a problem in my opinion.

[Dies]

I agree exactly. It shouldn't look "ugly" unless there's a problem in my opinion.

Then there is definitely a problem with "Alpha" because plymouth looks butt ugly. Looks like something straight out of the early 80's.

That screencast looks sweet though.

My impressions on the preview is that it's pretty broken in certain areas but of course that's to be expected.

Browsing is so slooow, it's not even funny.

The update to GDM made it even fuglier than before.

And there's this stupid little "Configure Display" applet in the panel which is not only pointless and silly but it also seems to be permanent ? If anyone knows how to get rid of it, let me know, if not I'm filing a bug later today.

PackageKit is improving rapidly, but check the screenshot for a silly quirk.

The window that list packages to be installed or removed doesn't use a scrollbar, meaning you have to alt-drag and drag and drag it up to reach the cancel button. I guess they never thought anyone would install or remove more than a couple packages at a time :confused:


I could go on and on....

[RahulSundaram]

Hi,

Note that the screenshot uses the framebuffer while the default is kernel mode. It is explained in detail in

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/10/Alpha/ReleaseNotes

The current focus there is testing the new framework and not polish yet. It will get better as we get more closer to the release.

The non- scrollable list in PackageKit should be fixed in the latest git version already. Give it a few more updates and file a bug report otherwise. I don't have much of a insight on other issues.

[Dies]

Hi,

Note that the screenshot uses the framebuffer while the default is kernel mode. It is explained in detail in

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/10/Alpha/ReleaseNotes

The current focus there is testing the new framework and not polish yet. It will get better as we get more closer to the release.

The non- scrollable list in PackageKit should be fixed in the latest git version already. Give it a few more updates and file a bug report otherwise. I don't have much of a insight on other issues.

Ah, cool thanks for the link.

I skimmed through it but totally missed that section :rolleyes: I'll give the work around a try, from that screeencast though it looks great, blows rhgb out of the water.

As far as PackageKit, I have to say it's really coming along. I find myself calling gpk-install instead of yum. :)

BTW if anyone else has a slow Firefox disable IPv6 in about:config and watch it fly.

[iamvoyager]

oh, wow. Somehow I missed the screencast link the first time through this thread. That is absolutely gorgeous! Much more professional looking than the old boot screen.

[Trapper]

WOW!!! TABBED NAUTILUS!!! Erm, wait a sec, I don't use Nautilus.

You might not with F10 final either if it's as slow as it is in 10 Alpha. :D On my hard drive install it takes about 5 sec. for Nautilus to open up. Browsing /etc takes about 18 sec. more to get it open. Opening /usr/share can be a long treat too. Etc. I'm sure they'll fix all that though. I haven't even tried the tabs yet. Couldn't get myself beyond the aggravation of the sloth version of nautilus. :)

[Dies]

You might not with F10 final either if it's as slow as it is in 10 Alpha. :D On my hard drive install it takes about 5 sec. for Nautilus to open up. Browsing /etc takes about 18 sec. more to get it open. Opening /usr/share can be a long treat too. Etc. I'm sure they'll fix all that though. I haven't even tried the tabs yet. Couldn't get myself beyond the aggravation of the sloth version of nautilus. :)

Really? It's running fast here.

The tabs thing seems silly to me right now, but maybe I'll change my mind once I start actually using them which hasn't happened yet. :D

BTW Plymouth is soooo much nicer than rhgb, comes up sooner too, if it came up a second eariler you would see no text at all.

0x318

[RahulSundaram]

Hi

Testing releases have a lot more debugging stuff enabled which makes it easier to report problems but slows down stuff at times. I will add a item to the release notes.

[Trapper]

Really? It's running fast here.

The tabs thing seems silly to me right now, but maybe I'll change my mind once I start actually using them which hasn't happened yet. :D


Oh. Maybe I should do some investigating. I guess I was assuming the slow nautilus in Alpha was a community thing. Maybe it's something local though. Nautilus in F8 & F9 run great on the same hardware, etc. though. Hopefully, it has something to do with the extra debugging, etc. Makes me wonder why it would affect one person but not another though. I am going to do some checking though and probably even another install to another partition.

FWIW ... My first impression of 10 overall ... I already like it better than 9. That's not a slam on 9 either. I am happy with it but 10 just feels better even though it's only in Alpha and buggy.

BTW Plymouth is soooo much nicer than rhgb, comes up sooner too, if it came up a second eariler you would see no text at all.

Good news for some might be bad news for others. :) I've been hacking and rebuilding the rhgb rpms since F7. That along with some graphics work has given me what I consider to be a personalized, visually appealing start up. Back to the drawing board, I guess. :)

[Dies]

Good news for some might be bad news for others. :) I've been hacking and rebuilding the rhgb rpms since F7. That along with some graphics work has given me what I consider to be a personalized, visually appealing start up. Back to the drawing board, I guess. :)

I did that a couple times. But not being a programmer I was pretty limited. Besides it was a real kludge to say the least.

For what it's worth it might not be such bad news since it's "plugin" driven which suggests it will be much, much easier to customize. ;)

[LDC]

any chances of having a zero latence kernel in some of the future release?

[JN4OldSchool]

any chances of having a zero latence kernel in some of the future release?

You may already know about this site:

http://ccrma.stanford.edu/planetccrma/software/

[LDC]

You may already know about this site:

http://ccrma.stanford.edu/planetccrma/software/
I was aware of its existence but didn't know the exact location, now I do. Thanks :)
The question, btw, was intended to understand how much of this matter is of public interest, so that in the future rel of fedora maybe those optimizations will be default....

[JN4OldSchool]

I was aware of its existence but didn't know the exact location, now I do. Thanks :)
The question, btw, was intended to understand how much of this matter is of public interest, so that in the future rel of fedora maybe those optimizations will be default....

Forget it...

I suppose it would be good to tune in on the meeting and maybe add your input. I have been hard on the developers lately, and I am sure they do want to cater to the vast majority. But, the reality is the insiders are driving the project and they are building what the technology dictates. It is kind of a run-away train, they just follow along where they think the future should be. I seriously doubt they are interested in existing technology, they want to push the envelope.

You might mention the LVM thing though...But I have my doubts anyone is really listening...

[LDC]

Forget it...
boooooooooooooooohohohoooooooooo :( :( :( :(

http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc199/CrystalDragonSpaceMarine/motivator8990323.jpg

I suppose it would be good to tune in on the meeting and maybe add your input.
they will just send me straightforwardly to h3ll :P

I have been hard on the developers lately, and I am sure they do want to cater to the vast majority. But, the reality is the insiders are driving the project and they are building what the technology dictates. It is kind of a run-away train, they just follow along where they think the future should be. I seriously doubt they are interested in existing technology, they want to push the envelope.

You might mention the LVM thing though...But I have my doubts anyone is really listening...
the only good side of this is that customization does exist :)
"I don't like this" --> "allright, let's remove and replace it..."

[ivancat]

they will just send me straightforwardly to h3ll :P
no, they won't. Talking about the meeting: there'll be 2 channels, in the 1st one devs will talk and everyone will have read access to it, the other one will be for everyone and mods *may* take the questions raised here and discuss them in their own. Most likely if you say something like "PK sux, give us Yumex!" it will be ignored, though maybe still worth a try?

I myself is more interested in that new gdm that I personally don't like at all. And if in case with PK it can be wiped out and replaced with yumex, in case with gdm there can be problems... at least I will try to get to know if it's possible to replace that 'new one' with the original one distributed by gnome.org


the only good side of this is that customization does exist :)
"I don't like this" --> "allright, let's remove and replace it..."

Like that as well

[Demz]

boooooooooooooooohohohoooooooooo :( :( :( :(

http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc199/CrystalDragonSpaceMarine/motivator8990323.jpg


they will just send me straightforwardly to h3ll :P


the only good side of this is that customization does exist :)
"I don't like this" --> "allright, let's remove and replace it..."
its not just Fedora devs cutting out the Customization, its Gnome Devs also so to say you'll be able to customize something wil be kinda hard unless you use , say Xfce or maybe another DE/Window Manager

[LDC]

it happens that I ___do___ use XFCE ;)

[Demz]

it happens that I ___do___ use XFCE ;)
your getting confused with the 2 then.. i think Gnome Now isnt as Customizable as it once was, whereas XFCE is

[LDC]

your getting confused with the 2 then.. i think Gnome Now isnt as Customizable as it once was, whereas XFCE is
I think that "customization", on dev level, is not based solely upon the graphic environment.
It depends on a large set of sub-options which, in the case of fedora dev team, is going to a direction that a (considerable?) amount of users believe "wrong", where for "wrong" we may assume "not in their interest" and, as consequence, "in the interest of developers" (for whatever reason, that doesn't matter).
So, will we end with a "fedora built for devs"?
I think it would like me writing a book for only me to read, I totally fail to understand such a thing.
Also, should we re-consider semantics for "cuttin' edge"? environments such as Gnome aren't quite "mainstream" to be considered really "cuttin' edge"? Enlightment/Fluxbox/WM/XFCE are less known, they can be considered a bit more "cuttin' edge", isn't?
If this logic would be applied to the entire "fedora project" we would end up with something totally different; I am the first one who would not appreciate something THAT different, but the most important topic, I think, is to have devs developing for users.

[JN4OldSchool]

I think that "customization", on dev level, is not based solely upon the graphic environment.
It depends on a large set of sub-options which, in the case of fedora dev team, is going to a direction that a (considerable?) amount of users believe "wrong", where for "wrong" we may assume "not in their interest" and, as consequence, "in the interest of developers" (for whatever reason, that doesn't matter).
So, will we end with a "fedora built for devs"?
I think it would like me writing a book for only me to read, I totally fail to understand such a thing.
Also, should we re-consider semantics for "cuttin' edge"? environments such as Gnome aren't quite "mainstream" to be considered really "cuttin' edge"? Enlightment/Fluxbox/WM/XFCE are less known, they can be considered a bit more "cuttin' edge", isn't?
If this logic would be applied to the entire "fedora project" we would end up with something totally different; I am the first one who would not appreciate something THAT different, but the most important topic, I think, is to have devs developing for users.

I sometimes feel like the ringleader here. Let me clarify my position. First off, Fedora always has been a distro built for the devs. This is a very arguable statement and I suppose that even the devs themselves have mixed motives for what they are building. I would guess some want to see a prototype RHEL geared towards mainly enterprise use (hence the default LVM). I would guess others want to embrace new users coming over from Windows. They want to be equivalent to Ubuntu. They are deluded into thinking Fedora is for every desktop and should rule the world. Yet others probably see themselves as very separate from Red Hat and feel Fedora should embrace anything brand new and cutting edge. Inside these groups are varying opinions into how far to each extreme Fedora should go. My problem with the way Fedora APPEARS to be headed is that it is the eternal compromise trying to satisfy ALL these groups. I may be wrong, I often am.

I like F9. It was a rough release but it shaped up. I have NO problems with it. It is distinctly Fedora. As with anything in life, there are things I dislike about it. There are things I dislike about my wife. About my kids. I am sure there is much to dislike about me. But the question is can I love it as it is? Yes, I can. If not I would look elsewhere.

I dont think Fedora will ever end up as something "different" as much as I fear it is going to become "mediocre" with excessive compromises. I think the devs need to get back to their roots, to forget about the Windows noobs and trying to advertise a Fedora for all seasons. They need to not worry about enterprise stability. The enterprises running Fedora, as I have been told by many here, realize what they are running and make it work. If not then they have other options. I think Fedora should return to not being a RHEL test bed, but a technology test bed. I think it is the perfect mix of usable stability and bleeding edge. I think releasing without the capability of installing a 3D driver crosses that line, but I would rather they cross the line on that side than the other. Some of their decisions worry me, but while I may complain about them I have been around long enough to know that I should just wait and see. Every time Fedora tries something new this forum responds. Anything. F8 it was pulseaudio. Now it is packagekit. But isnt this what Fedora SHOULD be about? Frankly, I have no use for packagekit. But, I dont mind them developing it. I hope they make something out of it. Just leave me the option to ditch it or at least just turn it off.

[LDC]

well. if there is the option to modify it all, then it is ok...
will this option last?

[JN4OldSchool]

well. if there is the option to modify it all, then it is ok...
will this option last?

<sigh - back on the soap box>

That is the one thing I fear! Not just with Fedora, but with Gnome, KDE, Linux. When we lose the 100% configurability then Linux will no longer be Linux. When a distro decides the command line is too "hard core" and not needed as it scares people. Or when a distro decides that people should not log in as root under any circumstances and takes this away. Even when a DE decides that its greeter screen is the one everyone should be using and does not offer a way to change it (though in all fairness, I dont believe this is what happened with gdm, I just dont believe they have got around to it yet. We shall see...).

This is when Linux will become something else, something more Windows like. Do I mind a few distros going down this road? No! I think it is great for a few distros to make an idiot proof OS. This is much needed. But when the whole FOSS community starts walking down this road I get nervous. I dont know about you, but when someone tells me I cant do something then it becomes an obsession. I normally wouldnt give it a passing thought, like the Gnome clock. But tell me I cant change the font, size or color and it drives me nuts! It angers me! I want to know WHY I cant change these things in my Gnome clock? With Linux you should be able to change anything. And yeah, I suppose somewhere way down in the OS somewhere there is a line of code that will allow me to change the Gnome clock...

[LDC]

I don't have the time to deal with LFS :)

[scottro]

There are, as JN4 says, fewer and fewer. LFS, Gentoo, ArchLinux, Slackware (in order of most work to least work to configure) are the only ones that come to mind.

I think it may be one reason that more people try BSD these days, it still leaves you in control.

One thing that I've always found very odd--though this more CentOS than Fedora, as CentOS is based on the RH commercial versions and aimed more at the server market, is how they tie a server O/S so tightly to a GUI--and not just any GUI, but a resource intensive, full of dependencies that are often broken, one.

If you must tie it to a GUI, use *box, (flux, open, etc.) or if you have to have a DE rather than WM use xfce.

The thing is, it becomes easier, as to sysadmins, time is always at a premium, to just go along with it. Recently, on the CentOS forums, someone asked about removing X. Even the guru types were saying, keep it and just boot into runlevel 3, there are too many dependencies. This is a server?

It gets left because otherwise things don't work, or when you install apache, samba or other things that we use it gets pulled in anyway, and it simply becomes counterproductive to go through pulling it out.

[ivancat]

yes, it's a pity that we're losing flexibility and get an OS that's does more and more things one way, not allowing alternative.

Even though it seems odd regarding to linux, there's a simple explanation that comes to mind: it's easier for devs. Indeed, when there is only one configuration, developing of such software product becomes simplier, thus it needs less time. In conditions, when different distros try to stick to let's say 6-months schedule that means a lot.

In my opinion, F9 was an example when things went bad because there simply was no time to do all the checks, tests, etc. And now here's F10, Cambridge, full circle as some name it, so it hypothetically meant to be *at least* more solid and stable than other Fedora's distributions.

How to achieve this? Heavy testing + less testing features + features that either work or not are used (or, in other words, have one configuration available for everyone) are the keys to that desired result.

update: looking forward to see if the forthcoming meeting changes anything

[LDC]

I am gonna try a slack vbox :P

[hceylan]

For the look related stuff, www.gnome-look.org has tons of resources. I recommend you check it out.