Interesting article about the "Linux attitude"

[Thetargos]

I came across this article when checking my e-mail, and was rather surprised to see it in the ZDNet IT news section. It describes very well the attitude towards new users from many, many Unix and Linux "L33T" users, but it also identify the underlying differences in "logic" that operate in both the *nix and the Microsoft world. I thought we could have a nice debate/discussion about this, as even though the Fedora community can be tough (pedantic, bureaucratic, some times condescending), at least it doesn't gives all newbies an RTFM kind of welcome to each an every inquiry (sure we all have pointed users in the "right" direction by telling them what to read and what not, but I've seldom seen a kind of "f**k off and look it up, then come back to me when you know what you are talking about" kind of answer. However in the Linux community at large, these kind of answers from the community seem to be the norm, and the points made in this article surely got me thinking.

So what do you think?

Link (http://blogs.zdnet.com/Murphy/?p=1137&tag=nl.e622)

[JN4OldSchool]

I think that response hit the nail right on the head. The problem is a huge misunderstanding of what Linux is and expectations that Linux users should want to hand-hold the new user because for some strange reason we actually want them to join our ranks. There is a vast difference between a Unix/Linux user arguing that his OS is better and wanting to convert the world.

Speaking for myself, and from what I have seen, most regulars in this forum, questions get answered according to how they are asked.

One of our regular members wrote a great piece on this very topic. It inspired me when I read it and I feel it fits perfectly in this thread. I will PM him and ask him to link it or give me permission to do so.

[Dan]

Hmmm.

I think this is quite a mouthful of truth.

...What he’s doing here is striking out as a way of expressing the frustration he feels at being unable to understand what we’re all talking about - and while that’s fully understandable because he’s the victim of a social community confusing training with education, I think it’s also completely illustrative of the great divide blocking widespread Linux acceptance within the MCSE community.

[Thetargos]

One of our regular members wrote a great piece on this very topic. It inspired me when I read it and I feel it fits perfectly in this thread. I will PM him and ask him to link it or give me permission to do so.
I'd very much like to see it.

Absolutely, Dan. Also the bits about of how both environments operate is quite... insightful. The examples about a Solaris admin in a SuSE environment and a Win2003/XP Server on a WinNT 4 environment truly express key differences in what I've been calling for years "underlying logic".

[brunson]

I like this bit:
Basically, to learn Unix you learn to understand and apply a small set of key ideas and achieve expertise by expanding both the set of ideas and your ability to apply them.

[sej7278]

i find the unix vs. microsoft *user* debate more interesting than whiny n00bs ;)

as a programmer i've definitely noticed that unix programmers seem to be better. they do things the cleaner way - optimising for speed, scalability, portability, security etc. microsoft programmers seem to just get it done quickly and often really badly, probably due to using ide's like visual studio or jbuilder and not actually understanding what the code is doing under the hood.

unix programmers are purists - we use text editors, write makefiles or shell scripts to automate things, we do unit testing, use open standards and lower level programming languages like c, instead of java/c#.....

it just doesn't seem to be in the average windows user's mindset to even think about such things.

frankly i think anybody who is an mcse is going to be such a microsoft-loving person that they can't be bothered to learn unix, and really why should they - an mcse is going to make a rubbish unix sysadmin anyway, like i would make a rubbish win2003 "admin" (i'd spend too long cursing the pointy-clicky nature of all of microsoft's management tools and try to write scripts to do everything - like the time my solaris box and a 20-line perl script did in a day what a team of nt4 admins couldn't do in a week - restore all the activedirectory permissions on a 2tb fileserver that had died).

i'm not particularly impressed with these "qualifications" anyway, i've worked with too many cissp, ccna, mcse folks who have no clue.

[adrianx]

frankly i think anybody who is an mcse is going to be such a microsoft-loving person that they can't be bothered to learn unix, and really why should they - an mcse is going to make a rubbish unix sysadmin anyway
I tend to agree.

Maybe I should find a MS forum and ask them why nothing starts when I click start! I'm sure I'll get a friendly answer.... :D

[dubb]

I read this article when it first came out. All I can say is I try to learn something about .nix all the time and I still ask Noobish questions without looking for an answer on my own. Frankly taking a hit on asking such questions doesn't effect me much. What I'm really interested in is the reason why we have to do something a certain way. That alone gives me the will look things up. As a noob I hate to ask obvious questions that I know that are easy. Just don't know where to look.

I read Linux news all the time.
Are MCSEs too stupid to learn Linux?
http://weblog.infoworld.com/enterprisedesktop/archives/2008/05/are_mcses_too_s.html

[Dan]

... All of which begs the question: Are *NIX users simply too stupid to appreciate the enduring qualities of Windows NT? OK!


That one left me leaning back in the chair laughing so hard my belly hurts! <..:p..>

This isn't about operating systems. It's about people! (in general) Brain locked zealots in particular!

As proof I offer any one of the following:

Linux vs Windows
Ubuntu vs anything else
LVM vs anything else
Firefox vs Opera
AMD vs Intel
ATi vs nVIDIA
Beer vs anything else
Global warming vs anything else
Ford vs Chevy
Mayo vs Mustasrd
Turnips vs anything else!

[Thetargos]

As proof I offer any one of the following:


Mayo vs Mustasrd

But these two complement each other so well!!

...Ahh... I see where you're getting at, mister! All OSes complement each other! :D

/runs

[juanfgs]

OK!


That one left me leaning back in the chair laughing so hard my belly hurts! <..:p..>

This isn't about operating systems. It's about people! (in general) Brain locked zealots in particular!

As proof I offer any one of the following:

Linux vs Windows
Ubuntu vs anything else
LVM vs anything else
Firefox vs Opera
AMD vs Intel
ATi vs nVIDIA
Beer vs anything else
Global warming vs anything else
Ford vs Chevy
Mayo vs Mustasrd
Turnips vs anything else!

I can see you didn't include the Emacs vs. Vim flame war, but it is obviously ommited because we ALL know that Emacs is superior.

[majikthise]

Having been on the Microsoft side of things (and I still is), the MCSE way of doing things is still to a large extent 'do it our way, and don't ask questions' that's the impression I've got from reading most of the pre-exam books. Also, there seems to be a totally different point of view with teaching methods these days. People that I meet who've just left school or have done in the last 15-20 years just don't seem to have been given proper computer skills beyond how to use M$ Windows & Office. They have been given a very shallow set of skills with no expectation to look beyond the M$ world-view. Its probably a sadder reflection of the numb skulls who are in charge of the national curriculum. They seem to expect the universities to pick up the baton, sadly not everyone can afford a university education. My local college doesn't do much beyond adult learning courses with M$ products either.

[scottro]

Jn4 was talking about an article of mine. It was originally written for the tlug list--some newcomers wound up almost driving some of the more valuable oldtimers off the list.

http://home.nyc.rr.com/computertaijutsu/newbieguide.html

On the other hand, were I an MS professional, used to good, centralized documentation, investigating Linux, I'd get frustrated too. I got frustrated enough coming from FreeBSD, and its docs aren't on the level of MS docs. <shrug>

Sigh, that sounds like a troll thing. It's not meant to be.

I think Linux docs could be better. I make my own small effort on my pages.
'Nuff said.

[w5set]

pish-tosh....and humbug...XEmacs rulz!
And gedit ain't so bad neither...nor kedit :)

And just why (Dan)-----would turnips NOT be better then all else? hummmm?
And I like Broccoli too!! ---so there! :p

The most important "attitude" to have with any OS (especially Linux) is .....
"I can do this "stuff".....
If others can accomplish getting familar with Linux and having a great looking and acting desktop/ser ver/whatever.......
SO CAN I.....

As far as new users getting a feel of "leet" (or RTFM) coming back from a query of theirs from other more developed users........It won't ever go completely away....some questions are posted right above a thread that had 20 responses on the VERY same subject and "some" folks just plain refuse to do a minor bit of looking before leaping.

"Like man, I didn't feel that was directed at me--but I can see that now...are you sure that would work in my very special case?"
"Why yes it will work....now lets all hold hands and sing "Coom Bah Yah"
I can just see it now... :p

Human nature is gonna be the same for a long time I figure....you can lead a horse to water--but you can't necessarily make it drink....old saying but so so true. :(

[Firewing1]

This is exactly why I feel that many large project should merge (*cough* KDE and Gnome *cough*). That idea sounds crazy, but I really don't see the point in duplicating work.

Duplication of work across FOSS software projects or distributions themselves isn't moving backwards, but it isn't moving forwards either. The spirit of open source means that we as users can create, modify, fork, and redistribute - But at a certain point it just becomes ridiculous (funpidgin? Why can't the pidgin developers be OK with adding a separate plugin instead of forking it!).

The amount of FOSS software projects and distributions that aim to accomplish the very same goals is enormous, and as far as I can see this results in a lack of up to date documentation and in some cases ease of use since a lot of time is spend on meta management - Copying code from a forked project, implementing features that the "competing" project now has. The result of that is, of course, the "do it yourself" response since no documentation exists.

What I hope will happen eventually is that developers become much more user oriented - Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that developer's aren't now - but I mean to say that developers will design software with user input as their #1 priority. After all, 99% of the time it's users and not fellow developers that will end up interfacing with the software!

We can start now by standardizing lots of things. For example, imagine if we could move the common functionality of Enlightment, Gnome, KDE, etc to a third party. Change something once in that third party, and the change is felt in all desktop environments without any extra work needed! And developers can then spend that time saved (many times over since many desktop environments exist) improving the differences of each project, creating new common features or adding documentation on those features - So each project has shared data but its uniqueness as well. And the entire situation is much more welcoming to new users wanting to give a hand patching/programming.

Firewing1

[Dan]

Jn4 was talking about an article of mine. It was originally written for the tlug list--some newcomers wound up almost driving some of the more valuable oldtimers off the list.

http://home.nyc.rr.com/computertaijutsu/newbieguide.html (http://home.nyc.rr.com/computertaijutsu/newbieguide.html)

On the other hand, were I an MS professional, used to good, centralized documentation, investigating Linux, I'd get frustrated too. I got frustrated enough coming from FreeBSD, and its docs aren't on the level of MS docs. <shrug>

Sigh, that sounds like a troll thing. It's not meant to be.

I think Linux docs could be better. I make my own small effort on my pages.
'Nuff said. Hmmmm.

Good points, good comments. (I've got that page on "Speed dial" by the way.)

This pretty well sums it up for me, I think.

(From way back when ... by a fellow I know pretty well.)

Realities of Command

If you walk into the office or the station at the beginning of your shift, look around at your fellow officers and firefighters, and are pretty damn sure you're the smartest person in the room ...


Both your command, and your career, are already in deep, deep trouble.

<..:eek:..>

[JN4OldSchool]

One thing I see in this thread is that the email Paul was answering has three main points:

First, is there any hope in an open source Linux world for the development of a “standard” that holds long enough for newcomers to adapt to it?

Secondly, if not, and with the myriad of distro variations out there, how can accurate “how to” and “help” documentation ever be developed to assist and welcome newcomers?

Thirdly, despite all of the hype about the wonderful help available on Linux discussion groups, your tart yet honest response is exactly the attitude I have encountered time and again. So, why do the existing Linux experts and elite (like yourself) persist in ridiculing those who shun Linux, while at the same time you give well meaning newcomers an elitist cold shoulder snubbing when they do make an effort to make the switch? Do you want people to switch or not?

The first point is what Firewing is addressing, the second point is Scottro's complaint. I identify with the third complaint, and when you stop and think about it, this is actually the barrier one has to get through to deal with the first two points. Documentation? That is easy! It sucks in Linux. It is the nature of the OS. Information is more community based and information is transferred person to person. It is just a matter of finding the right people to help, and this goes back to point three; you need to know how to ask for help. Standardization? Yeah, I see Firewing's point, and I wont argue that some of the things going on in FOSS are utterly ridiculous. But as a home user in the private sector I like how things are. It is very diverse and anyone can jump in anywhere. I can see where it makes life more difficult at the administrator level though. But once again, the thrust of the email was that this is a turnoff for the newcomer. What should I use, Gnome or KDE? Why are things different in each? Which browser, music player, even which distro? Day after day I read things like "It works in SuSE but it just wont work in any other distro..." Well brother, if it worked in SuSE or Ubuntu then it can be MADE to work in any other distro. But the newcomer just doesnt understand this, to them each distro is a vastly different OS made up of different code and limited to the apps in its repos. I wont get in the argument with Scottro that Linux is Linux vs. each distro is different. Of course each distro is different and some are harder than others. But the email written to Paul shows the other extreme to my Linux is Linux. If the newcomer would just approach point three with the right attitude then the first two points would come in time. Sure it is going to take some work and effort, but Linux is not the murky quagmire that people like this make it out to be.

[scottro]

That is a great line.

My original article was written in response to a situation on a maling list where a newcomer had ticked off a guru. It's sort of a simplification of the famous how to ask questions the smart way.

On the other hand, the Ubuntu folks have my admiration (as well as the PCBSD folks.) In both cases, advocacy is a part of their aim, and both show amazing patience with newcomers.

As do some folks here--I was looking through a thread where bbfuller was helping someone where I would have simply said read what I wrote, or started ignoring the thread. (This just happens to be the most recent thing I've seen, there are many many other folks on this list, some in this thread, who are the same way.)

[scottro]

The above (well,so many folks are on this thread, by the time I finish, it might not be---post #18 was aimed at Dan's line about command.

Re JN4's comment, I conceded that argument--but I thought it was with Bob. :) Yes, Linux is Linux and if it works in one, it can be made to work in another, at least 99 percent of the time. (Let's not split hairs--yes, something that needs a 2.6.24 kernel won't work with a 2.6.18, but you know what I mean.)

I really don't think I've ever seen someone say, I've read the man page and I"m lost, could someone explain what this part means, and not get an answer.

If I come in here and say, Sheesh, this Fedora stinks, I'm going to Ubuntu and goodbye, you'll probably say Don't let the (cyber)door hit you on the way out.
If I come in and say, I'm really lost, nothing works, let's start with problem one, as I'd rather try to finish what I started, I suspect I'll get 20 good answers in an hour.
Attitude can make up for ignorance and incompetence. For both of those can be cured.

[JN4OldSchool]

I am still going through the article Thet linked. This response:

http://talkback.zdnet.com/5208-11202-0.html?forumID=1&threadID=47168&messageID=877858&start=-9988

is interesting. I enjoyed it.

But this quote:

Basically, to learn Unix you learn to understand and apply a small set of key ideas and achieve expertise by expanding both the set of ideas and your ability to apply them - but you learn Windows by working with the functionality available in a specific release.

is the key and it is what I am trying to say in the above post and with the whole linux is Linux thing that these new people coming from Windows just cannot understand. Of course, this whole email exchange has more to do with computer professionals, but it really makes me wonder that if someone who has worked, as a career, in this case an MCSE for 11 years, is having so much trouble learning Linux, why is it a dumb redneck construction worker like myself can become what I would call "fairly competent" in Linux within a year or so of dabbling in his spare time? Surely it is no more than a mindset.

[w5set]

@JN4....
???
quote--> .....dumb redneck construction worker .........
You too? :D

Well, that's the main way I puts taters n "some kinda meat" on the table for 30+ years now.
And the proper term I like to teach my Apprentices is...
Construction Craftsperson (gotta be politically kerrect these days) ;)
I always said...if ya ain't proud enuff to show your work to your Momma...ya ain't done it right!!

Same rule applies to learning Linux or Windoze or Mac stuff......put just a tab of effort in it and you will get much more out. :)

Guess me n you proves it's certainly not rocket surgery... ;)

[leadgolem]

I would pay to see rocket surgery...

[Seve]

I would pay to see rocket surgery...
me digs out my paypal bucket :D

I have Rocket ... will travel :cool:

Seve

[w5set]

@leadgolem....
how much? :)

http://www.stevewhite.org/stuff/Helenisms.html
:)

[majikthise]

I always said...if ya ain't proud enuff to show your work to your Momma...ya ain't done it right!!What if you makes your livin' with yer meat 'n' 2 veg in the pr0n industry.
Maybe yer momma makes yer proud? That's a whole genre of top shelf stuff right there. :D

[JohnBailey]

From what I've seen of the Fedora forum so far, there seems to be a disappointing lack of noob roasting. How are we gonna burn out the time wasters if we can't frighten the less dedicated ones away? I was promised cutting sarcasm and snide insults. I demand a refund! And a cookie!! :mad:

:D

I kid. You guys are great. I've learned a huge amount by searching this forum and occasionally posting a question or two. If I'm not careful, I may get competent. One day I'll actually know enough to help someone myself. Hopefully I don't come off as a complete idiot.

I think the biggest problem that Linux noobs face is that many people don't actually understand how to use forums. A chat room is a completely different environment. Brevity is the key skill, and the shorter the question the better. Forums are a different kettle of coat hangers. No hurry in writing a brief but complete account of the problem and later thanking others for their help. It takes time to get the hang of it.

There are still a few RTFM merchants lurking on many forums. I've come across a few from time to time, but I do tend to spend an abnormal amount of time in one group or another.

[w5set]

@JohnBailey..
Quote--->Hopefully I don't come off as a complete idiot.
Nope ya don't..

But there's always constant study...lots of dedication to your Linux education...and
soon you will fit in here and be that "complete idjut" so no one will be able to tell you from some of us here... :D
I always said...."A good idjutcation never hurt no-one" ;)
(taking poetic or any other form of liberty to twist and turn the King's and any other offshoot dialects of English into something that makes sense to me...anyway) :p

[JohnBailey]

@JohnBailey..
Quote--->Hopefully I don't come off as a complete idiot.
Nope ya don't..

But there's always constant study...lots of dedication to your Linux education...and
soon you will fit in here and be that "complete idjut" so no one will be able to tell you from some of us here... :D

Well I do try to be a perfect idiot, but I know I'll never reach such a lofty standard. Happy to know I'm in such inspiring company.

[ihavenoname]

I can see you didn't include the Emacs vs. Vim flame war, but it is obviously ommited because we ALL know that Emacs is superior.

Oh NO! Vim is far superior!!

[sej7278]

I can see you didn't include the Emacs vs. Vim flame war, but it is obviously ommited because we ALL know that Emacs is superior.

oh that's just asking for trouble! ;)

i got asked the "do you use vi or emacs" question on a panel interview once, luckily i chose vi or all hell could have broken loose.

[scottro]

Emacs is a great O/S. All it needs is a good text editor. :)

[Firewing1]

I got it - Let's add vim to the EmacsOS! ;)
Firewing1

[scottro]

That could be a sig.

[LDC]

I haven't seen any with that attitude in this board.... (yet?), 99% of the questions I posted here did receive answers, helping me a lot solving the problem or addressing me for more resources to learn. But the key is: that 99% posted here, is the 1% of my total... because the 99% has already been asked and answered, I just have to use the "search function" of this board :)

[Thetargos]

I really don't think I've ever seen someone say, I've read the man page and I"m lost, could someone explain what this part means, and not get an answer.
There were many times when I got lost even after reading a man page... It wasn't until I searched the issue on Google that I saw (frequently in the RHL mailing lists) an more "human-readable" answer to my original inquiry.

[Thetargos]

I haven't seen any with that attitude in this board.... (yet?), 99% of the questions I posted here did receive answers, helping me a lot solving the problem or addressing me for more resources to learn. But the key is: that 99% posted here, is the 1% of my total... because the 99% has already been asked and answered, I just have to use the "search function" of this board :)
If you are like me, I'm one of those rare cases of "search engine impairment"... Even if I use it, I seldom (especially in forums, Google is marvelous) I get the answer I'm looking for. Like my Linux skills, practice makes the master, so I have to exercise the "search muscle" every now and then (as Leigh could probably relate)

[LDC]

I find it is a kind of talent to be capable to guess which "right word" (search key) will solve my problems... When Google didn't exist, I relied on Altavista, it was well organized and "fast" enough (well, how can something be "fast" on a 486 with 33Mhz? :D).
Small shift: I think Google is becoming annoying, at least to me. It is time to see something new in the internet search tools...

[Thetargos]

I also used Altavista. Back in the day it used to be Yahoo, Altavista and Lycos, then Google came around and Altavista and Lycos died a painfully slow death. I still believe Google is decent enough as a search engine, I avoid using their "advanced" features (i.e. non-search engine related stuff) and only use it for search. I have never been able to cope with MSN search services, nor Yahoo (too much clutter on the screen distracting me from what "I came looking for".

[Dan]

Dogpile! (http://www.dogpile.com)

No muss, no fuss ... just results!

[Thetargos]

Amusing theme, by the way.

[scottro]

I remember trying to solve a problem in printing an Asian language. I made the mistake of googling with the search terms Japanese cups--the first 1,000 hits or so had to do with the Japanese tea ceremony and/or sake.

[RupertPupkin]

I got it - Let's add vim to the EmacsOS!
Emacs has had vi emulation for a long time: http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/viper/index.html
:)

[ihavenoname]

Emacs has had vi emulation for a long time: http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/viper/index.html
:)

yeah but why would you defile VI by running it in emacs??? :p

Disclaimer: I actually don't have much at stake in the argument I just think it's amusing, for cli I normally use nano and occasionally vi I am not comfortable with emacs. In anycase is there really anyone that actually takes this seriously????

[w5set]

Seriously?
YES!! :rolleyes:
Who in their right mind would defile Emacs/XEmacs with Vi/Vim? :D
Nano---mehhhh
Joe--well Iffn I have to
Gedit--tiz ok.
Kedit --ok for simple stuff
Vi/Vim--if I have to at a single user boot (the gunpoint thing.. :p )
Hmmm, I guess I usually use the first txt edior that gets under the pointer or is readily command line available, favorites I do have, but I don't recommend using Kword or the like for editing scripts much...lotsa stuff to remember about NOT formatting, fancy fonts, etc.
:)

I will have to hazard a guess that this is where the "Different strokes for different folks" applies..... :D

I usually throw the Ubuntu vs Fedora and 50 other discussions/disses/flames that float around the forum about every week into the same bin/container in my mind. ;)
But all of our likes and dislikes is xacterly what Linux is about....enjoy being the same and totally different at the same time.
Geezzzzzz....maybe some of the brown Ubuntu thing applies...we do kinda all hold hands in one fashion er tother... :eek:

[gthill]

I find it is a kind of talent to be capable to guess which "right word" (search key) will solve my problems... When Google didn't exist, I relied on Altavista, it was well organized and "fast" enough (well, how can something be "fast" on a 486 with 33Mhz? :D).
Small shift: I think Google is becoming annoying, at least to me. It is time to see something new in the internet search tools...

Do you use google-linux?
http://www.google.com/linux

[RupertPupkin]

Who in their right mind would defile Emacs/XEmacs with Vi/Vim?
Agreed, but hey, there are people who put ketchup on a filet mignon. :(
Joe--well Iffn I have to
Joe is a nice little editor (and less bloated than vi :) ). Moe (http://www.gnu.org/software/moe/) is another good cli text editor.

I think a very underated GUI text editor is Nedit (http://www.nedit.org). I would use that before gedit or kedit.

[MarkS]

I think a very underated GUI text editor is Nedit (http://www.nedit.org). I would use that before gedit or kedit.

Ahh, Nedit! I remember using it on those curvy blue O2 SGi machines with the huge -even by today's standarts- monitors.
Even then it looked ugly, but is it the most configurable, fast, stable, mature, low resources, well programmed, macros for everything, extensible editor out there. If you don't care about anti-aliasing or utf8 support that is.
Sadly it is being developed at glacial speeds and the developers have painted themselves in a motif corner that they refuge to get out from.

[LDC]

Do you use google-linux?
http://www.google.com/linux
nope, it seems fun btw :D

[techmatt]

What I hope will happen eventually is that developers become much more user oriented - Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that developer's aren't now - but I mean to say that developers will design software with user input as their #1 priority. After all, 99% of the time it's users and not fellow developers that will end up interfacing with the software!

This will never be the case. Developers will always create as the see user friendly. Since their idea of usefulness would be different from anyone else there will always be the development for developers.

What needs to be done is users giving developers more input one what they want, and the developers taking the ideas into consideration. A lot of developers will ignore request for GUI changes unless they like the idea, that is not always the best way to look at it. So far it has worked and we have great looking and usable software today, however, it took quite awhile to get here.

[Astrals]

Good post overall, everything is open to interpretation,I think it can be deduced that it can be viewed in from many mirrors, we all have to learn from a base from not understanding and expand from there.

I recently transferred from the dark side of windows over to the linux world (yes that makes me a noob) and I have found that if you really look just about all the information you require is available to you from forums due to someone has already asked the question and there are responses.

So I have found anyone can learn linux, all it comes down to is do they really have the patience and will to learn a new way of thinking outside there sphere.

I have only been using linux since the release of Fedora 9 and I can tell you now I'm not going back to windows!
If I had to revert back to windows I would prefer to turn the power switch off and pick up a paper back novel on fiction.

Ok there are various versions of linux, at first glance it seems overwhelming, so what, you have a search engine in front you, go find a version that will allow you to do what you want and start learning.
It appears to be viewed from a singular point "ARE YOU AFRAID OF LEARNING?"
If not then I have to agree get away from windows and get linux, without a doubt it is far superior.

There you have it my point of the squabbling spectrum.

[w5set]

@Astrals

Maybe you should have written......
"WHAT are you afraid of learning?"

And...welcome to Linux--specifically...Fedora. :)

[LDC]

distro wars galore? :D