New twist in rawhide

[scottro]

Well, this is cute. I upgraded tonight, and although inittab says default level is three, it kept wanting to boot up into graphic mode.

The only way to fix it was to add 3 to the end of the kernel line.

I was amused the first time--when I saw that the login screen didn't even give me an option to log into fluxbox, I was annoyed.

Beta won't install for me--I'll probably have to go the live CD route again--I tell ya, there's a reason this laptop was cheap. :)

On the testing list, no one has problems like I do, so I think this laptop is special.

[scottro]

Ok, just got an answer from the testing list. /etc/inittab is now going to be obsolete with upstart. I'd missed that one.
It will be in /etc/sysconfig/init, there's a GRAPHICAL knob to be set to yes or no.

Did everyone but me know this, or is this going to become one of those questions we're answering three times a day on the forums.
BTW, Mods, I put this in wibble, figuring it was too whimsical for Fedora focus. However, if you feel it's misplaced, feel free to move it. I'm flexible. (Stretches leg out to full length while holding sole of foot with hand.)

However, my wife, a former dancer, is even more flexible. :)

[notageek]

Did everyone but me know this, or is this going to become one of those questions we're answering three times a day on the forums

Doing away with /etc/inittab? Isn't that moving away from UNIX design philosophy? Is this only specific to Fedora?

[bob]

Moved to Fedora Focus - as you said, this will be a question we get time and again.

[scottro]

Thanks Bob--I did think of that, but was undecided.
Anyway, to answer notageek's question, I was curious myself. I did a quick google /etc/inittab upstart and saw that it's also in Ubuntu.

As for Linux and Unix, as a friend of mine (an Xemacs developer--he can make snide remarks like this because he's up there with the high level folks)

Remember, GNU's Not Unix! Just look at our code, Dennis, Brian, and
Rob would never write anything like this!

Linux isn't Unix, nor is GNU. Whether this is a Bad Thing(TM) or not, I don't know. I just hope they heavily document it. I haven't taken a look at the beta release notes, but, sad to say, as a rule Linux folks tend to forget documentation.
Well, just took a look.
Heh.
In the release notes, they mention that customizations to /etc/inittab should be ported to upstart. To see how, see the upstart getting started guide.
A look through that guide shows no mention of sysconfig. Basically, those who are used to booting into text mode are probably going to get burned.
I'll probably put up a 2 paragraph page about it, so that when the question comes up, I can just type the URL.

Upstart may be an improvement, this I don't know. It's just they tend to (not Fedora, specifically, this is a Linux wide problem) violate the POLA--principle of least astonishment, and then they don't make an easy to find documents about it.

(I don't know about Ubuntu, they may have it clearly documented somewhere--they tend to be a bit better at it, no doubt in part because their number one stated bug is that Windows is more popular--and Windows, whatever you want to say about it, tends to have excellent help and documentation, the more technical docs gathered together in Technet.)

[scottro]

A quick PS. Following some of those google hits, I saw a post starting with a quick rundown, how Ubuntu is moving things to event.d. Great, says the poster, except that someone forgot to do the documentation. (He wants to start at a different run level than most people.)

Ok, I take back my last post that Ubuntu might have documented it.

Yup, I think I defintely better put up that two paragraph page--I'll do it when I'm in a less sarcastic mood about it.

[notageek]

Linux isn't Unix, nor is GNU. Whether this is a Bad Thing(TM) or not, I don't know.

Well.... You have a point, but...

I was just digging for POSIX to see if /etc/inittab is a standard, unfortuantely (or fortunately) it isn't in any standard, "but whether system startup involves /etc/inittab, /etc/rc, or Something Else is pot luck."

Although I agree Linux isn't UNIX but I use Linux because it is like UNIX and can run on my PC (without killing it), now I would have preffered if changes like /etc/inittab be better documented.

[notageek]

User Experience
For this iteration, the less the user notices, the better.

I found it here http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/Upstart

[scottro]

Yes, I saw it after I posted. I did a bit of googling too and see various Ubuntu users complaining about the change which was apparently not well documented--for example someone saying, when the wiki guide says edit /etc/inittab I assume that there is such a file. :)
Someone answered if you want everything in the expected places, use something like Fedora. This was a year ago though, when we used inittab.

Anyway, I've put up my page with the brief explanation, so that when the posts start coming I can simply type
http://home.nyc.rr.com/computertaijutsu/rhupstart.html

As I suspect the majority of users accept the default of booting into runlevel 5, many might not even notice. I haven't figured out if it boots more quickly now or just seems to. :)

[Nokia]

Hmm, pretty lame. :) I have to say, eversince Ubuntu introduced upstart there's been a notable increase in speed on all the machines I have under my supervision. Yet I didn't knew the "GRAPHICAL" part.

So..changing runlevels ha ? Graphical-yes= 5 Graphical-NO= a random chosen one ? :D just kiding ;)

[scottro]

Nokia, that was a good line. The sysconfig/init file seems to be Fedora, not Ubuntu.

I wonder if it's worth submitting a patch for /etc/inittab to put, right about the place where you change the default level
NOTE THAT THIS WILL NOT CHANGE YOUR DEFAULT RUNLEVEL. PLEASE EDIT /etc/sysconfig/init INSTEAD.

It would probably save a lot of people some aggravation. As it is, the release notes didn't mention /etc/sysconfig/init, or if they did, I missed it--which is certainly possible as it was pretty late when I looked.

[Nokia]

Yes, that's a great idea. :)

[Nokia]

Here's mine. From F9 till F11 I'd change /etc/inittab into a symlink to /etc/sysconfig/init with a thorough comment stating this is a transitional fix hereby announcing a major change without disturbing people as it happened to you now.

[scottro]

I've mentioned the idea of a patch on the fedora-testing list--this was in response to someone who commented that it hadn't yet been properly documented and that he would follow up on the devel list. (I think he's a developer.)
So, let's see what happens next--I don't know if they're going to eliminate inittab or leave it in as a clever trap for the unwary.

I like your idea, actually. The only advantage of mine is that it's a bit less work to implement.

One does have to congratulate the developers though--for the majority of people who boot into 5, they've made it pretty transparent.

[RahulSundaram]

Hi,

Bill Nottingham who replied to your mail in fedora-test list is one of the maintainers of upstart in Fedora. we will probably go with the idea of adding a note on top of the file pointing it to the new one. Symlink isn't such a good idea since the format has completely changed in the new file.

[Nokia]

Thanks for the info Rahul. :)

[scottro]

Take that Nokia--my idea was better. :)
Seriously, I suspect that most people are like me--they will open it and their eye will go right to that line to change it, as we do with each install--that's why the thought of a warning in upper case right above or below it seems the best way to get people's attention.

Ubuntu has apparently removed inittab entirely.

One problem is that Fedora/RH community is so much larger than say, the FreeBSD one. In FreeBSD, something like this would be the subject of a HEADSUP on the CURRENT or STABLE mailing lists, and enough people would see it so that as soon as the question came up on the list, someone else would point them to it. That's not really that practical with Fedora--I suspect the majority of users aren't on mailing lists. I just joined testing because bugzilla is so darn slow with searches. :)

I'd like to add my thanks to Nokia's.

[Nokia]

I'm...devastated. :D (just keep in mind that ~10% was preparing a typo for the FTP thread, and you must know how intricate those ACL can become ;) )

Yes, there's no sign of inittab in Ubuntu for about 3 or four versions, IIRC (I forgot when usplash appeared - but I remember it was a .10 release -that would be october)

We'll, I guess when the inittab tsunami will hit, we'll have to put an announcement on the forums. Other than that, there's not much to be done.

[kevmif]

So init 3 and init 5 wont work anymore?

[Nokia]

Wrong. It will work as usual.

[scottro]

It will work right now. However, in F9 it will not. See the first post in the thread.

You will have to edit the line in /etc/sysconfig/init.

For what it's worth Nokia (re your comment about the deluge that we might expect) I sent a headsup email to the fellow who maintains mjmwired, as I think most of us check his site when a new comes out, also I have my little two paragraph page. So, as the type who likes to boot into runlevel 3 is usually a bit more advanced, and will probably google before posting, it might not be too bad.

[Nokia]

Just a minute Scott. It's just a default runlevel relocation - to simplify the most. What has it to do with Post #19 ?

[scottro]

We might be misunderstanding each other.

As far as I understand it, Fedora is following Ubuntu's lead and moving away from Sys V init altogether. (Sigh, I wish they'd go to BSD init, which has always struck me as the most logical.)

As of recent Rawhide updates, /etc/inittab is ignored by the init scripts. That is, if you change the runlevel there, it's ignored. If I put a 3 at the end of the kernel line in /boot/grub/menu.lst that is still honored. Using chkconfig with levels is still working.

So, in that sense, it'll work, as far as I know. However, /etc/inittab will be ignored.

I took post 19 to mean that it won't work in /etc/inittab, which was mental sloppiness on my part.

(Although as the idea is apparently to move away from Sys V init altogether, I'm not sure what the future holds.)



I suppose I could nitpick--you said they will work as usual and usual could imply that they would work if you specified them in /etc/inittab. :) So, in that sense, no it won't work as usual.

kevmif, sorry if I was misleading you there.

Nokia, I think it is going deeper than a relocation, at least in the end--I'm not sure about right now.

[Nokia]

Clearly a misunderstanding Scott. :)

I took #19 as in:No more # init 3 or # init 5 and that's unlikely to happen IMO. Imagine a *nix without runlevels :p

I'm a bit puzzled also about the delay between upstart's launch and Fedora's adoption/implementation (is it two years) ?

Anyway, I doubt upstart to cause serious problems. Yet I suspect the new Debian-like dist-upgrade feature will be more susceptible to breakage and failures. We'll see...

[kevmif]

Hrrrm.... still dunno what to make of all this. I have a very basic understanding of runlevels (well, I know what each one does (0,1,3,5,6) at least).

My understanding is that the current init system of using runlevels is slow and dated so Fedora is moving to upstart which is more event driven as opposed to simply lumping tasks into runlevels.

My understanding (after reading the wiki page) is that in F9 at least, upstart will 'emulate' the init commands so that from a user perspective nothing will really change.

They are basically laying the foundation for much more drastic changes in future.

Is that right?