Help! I think I have been brainwashed!

[billb]

I have been using Linux increasingly for a few months now, and of course had heard of Linux long before that, and today I stumble across this web page that quite clearly points out that they are right and the other 99.9% of the population is wrong:

http://www.gnu.org/gnu/gnu-linux-faq.html

:eek:

;)

I read most of it, but uh ... I don't think that's gonna happen any time soon. It is still just Linux to me. :) Very insightful, though.

[giulix]

Everyone calls it Linux, but even Linus Torvalds, aknowledges that, without GNU, there would be no Linux...

Well, I think it's justified, but it's justified if you actually make a GNU distribution of Linux ... the same way that I think that "Red Hat Linux" is fine, or "SuSE Linux" or "Debian Linux", because if you actually make your own distribution of Linux, you get to name the thing, but calling Linux in general "GNU Linux" I think is just ridiculous.

[schwim]

That link is a perfect example of why normal people associate linux with crackpots and the tinfoil beanie crowd.

I've no doubt in my mind that Mr. GNU/Stallman has provided the GNU/Open source community with many aspects of our GNU/OS, however, I still think he is a freaking GNU/whacko.

He seems completely oblivious of the damage he's doing to the community as a whole when he dresses up like Moses after a McDonald's binge then begins spouting the unfairness of disingenuous product names.

thanks,
json

[Thetargos]

RMS actually DID something good when he started the FSF and the GNU project, but has since developed some sort of schizophrenia and/or excessive paranoia, and his pedantic way of referring to the OS and stuff has only fueled even more the "religious" tone of the discussions. More over apparently in person he is not what you'd call 'polite' or 'refined' (there are stories of him sitting at a table with other attendees to an event and when they served the dishes, we went from plate to plate "tasting" each other's food... What kind of sane and educated person does that?!?!)

[billb]

I already have some understanding of the terms "free as in beer" and "free as in speech". Now, having visited stallman.org, I understand "free as in freaking crazy"!!! :D

[schwim]

hehe,

THE FREEking crazy SOFTWARE FOUNDATION

thanks,
json

[w5set]

Sometimes there's a very delicate fine line between genius and nutso hairball behavior......sometimes, maybe, perhaps.
He does exhibit some (occasionally) of this type behavior-----the genius type behavior--mostly it's the hairball tinhat fruitloop crap he's showing.
He certainly went past eccentric behavior years ago for sure.

[Plossl]

Some will defend him by saying he is standing firmly by his principles. He's a musician who can play only one note.

There's much to be said for not taking yourself too seriously, but RMS's issues are much deeper than that.

[schwim]

Check youtube for some pretty wacky examples of his behavior.

Regardless of whether or not he's a genius(I'm not disputing the statement), he's someone I would never introduce to anyone for fear that they might think I condone his behavior. I'd keep him locked in my friggin' basement solving really hard math problems, or something.

thanks,
json

[jelyfish]

Isn't this a more appropriate link: http://www.gnu.org/gnu/gnu-history.html the other is a link to someone (gnu.org) arguing for gnu/linux. I think you are out of line... Your real arguement is against the naming of gnu/linux vs linux. As for others and their take of his political views (U.S. Left) -I say to each their own!

[schwim]

Our argument is against him being a whacko.

So far as I read in this thread, nobody really cares about his political affiliation.

If thinking he's a whackjob is wrong, then I don't wanna be right.

thanks,
json

[jelyfish]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=WNknNScP0tg

Not a whack job, your taking gnu/linux vs linux argument out of context.

[schwim]

my post was merely picking one small tidbit of whackjobiness out of the air that is full of nutty offerings from Mr. Stallman. The deciding factor relies on many aspects of whackiness, so fear not; I'm not being rash in my judgement. I take issuing the golden acorn very seriously, and would never haphazardly issue it to someone who was not bonafide batshlt crazy.

He is a whackjob and as nutty as a fruitcake, so he is indeed eligible for the award.

thanks,
json

[jelyfish]

AND that is a political view!

[schwim]

I know you are, but what am I.

thanks,
json

[jelyfish]

Truce it is Honorable brother

[schwim]

Fair enough.









But he is a freaking whack job.

Just sayin'... that's all.

thanks,
json

[sailor]

He's a flake!
I don't disagree with what he is saying, but he strikes me as a fine example of a Messianic complex.

[Plossl]

Check youtube for some pretty wacky examples of his behavior.

Good suggestion, json. You will forgive me, I hope, if I found other opinions (http://youtube.com/watch?v=Zg9RSF36WJs&mode=related&search=) on OSS at YouTube more interesting.

[schwim]

hmm, I wasn't so lucky to find that. I started out with Stallman and after a few videos, ended up watching Japanese prank TV shows. They were cooler than the Free Software song, though so I didn't mind :)

thanks,
json

[clearer]

I really don't see what Stallman's mental situation has to do with the name of an operating system.
Schwim, I really think you should mature a bit and stop acting in a similar manor to what you accuse Stallman of doing.

I think that it's rather unfair if I gave no credit to someone who had done the largest part of a project. I don't see why it should be any different with the GNU project.

People who think that Stallman is just the philosophical leader of the FOSS and Torvalds as the practical leader should start to do some more indept analysis of the current situation. GNU is written by (among a lot of other people) Richard M. Stallman. Linux is written (among a whole lot of other people) Linus Torvalds. GNU is a lot larger and is actually a lot more vital to the operations of your computer than Linux is. Finding a suitable replacement for Linux is a lot easier than finding a suitable replacement for GNU.

People like schwim are exactly the people FSF is talking about when they mention the Linux community as being unwilling to help out the GNU project -- considering how many people use GNU and how many people use Linux and how vital they are, compared to one another (if that really is possible to do), I find it puzzling that Linux have so many contributors and GNU doesn't have a lot more. I doubt that we will ever get away from mediocrity if people carry on this attitude.

The GNU project is trying to solve a lot of the problems people face today which simply cannot be solved in Linux -- this includes an up-to-date Java runtime environment, Flash players, virtual machines and a whole lot of other stuff that people keep complaining about not having. If GNU get's these things done soon (which things seem to indicate) there is no reason for keeping an i386 compiled system installed or even an x86 compatible machine at all.

I think that if HURD is ever finished, Linux will dwindle and if a replacement for GNU ever crops up, GNU will live on.

[Plossl]

clearer, maybe your browser isn't rendering the quote below, but it shows up just fine in mine.


I've no doubt in my mind that Mr. GNU/Stallman has provided the GNU/Open source community with many aspects of our GNU/OS, however, I still think he is a freaking GNU/whacko.

[rerushg]

I really don't see what Stallman's mental situation has to do with the name of an operating system.
Well, you're right. Wack-o does not, in and of itself, mean wrong-o.
But take it easy on schwim. After his masterful "cat n' mouse" game with, uh, "managment" last weekend he's my current hero. (and I don't have many heros left.) :D
Okay, Stallman's elevator lakes a circuitous path to the top floor. In my opinion, Linus's doesn't exactly travel a straight line either. No matter. They both have made wonderful contributions to our culture. But it's typical for the early idealists in a movement to appear irrelevant, even wacko, as the movement matures.
The central issue at this point for GNU/Linux or Linux (who really cares about the name?) is to understand that the movement has profound cultural ramifications that must be managed by the community to prevent governmental and corporate take-over of the very concept. Stallman, Torvolds, et. al. need to recogize this and focus on some sort of "unification theory" that both promotes and protects the movement.

Rick

[billb]

I think that if HURD is ever finished, Linux will dwindle and if a replacement for GNU ever crops up, GNU will live on.

Don't you mean "Guh-Noo Slash Linux" ? ;)

After watching some of the interviews on YouTube I have to agree with Stallman on everything 100%. I immediately walked through my house, snatched the Coke can out of my wife's hands and stomped it in the floor (Boycott Coca-Cola!), siphoned all the non-Citgo-gas out of my truck (bleh! ptheweee! [cough]), absconded with the Harry Potter book my 6-yr old was reading (Down with Harry Potter!), and now I'm at the office deleting all the non-free software on all the computers! :D

[schwim]

Schwim, I really think you should mature a bit and stop acting in a similar manor to what you accuse Stallman of doing.


You're absolutely right, Clearer and I apologize for putting you through the prepubescent shenanigans that I have. I should grow up and stop calling him a whacko, although we all know he is a raging whacko-a-mole freaking loon.






It seems that I just can't help myself, damnit. :(

thanks,
json

PS: For the record, I've never disputed than I'm a whacko, and take less offense at you calling me one than you do at me calling RMS one, so maybe you have third-person whacko displacement issues. Just a thought.

[Al3xanR0]

Don't you mean "Guh-Noo Slash Linux" ? ;)

After watching some of the interviews on YouTube I have to agree with Stallman on everything 100%. I immediately walked through my house, snatched the Coke can out of my wife's hands and stomped it in the floor (Boycott Coca-Cola!), siphoned all the non-Citgo-gas out of my truck (bleh! ptheweee! [cough]), absconded with the Harry Potter book my 6-yr old was reading (Down with Harry Potter!), and now I'm at the office deleting all the non-free software on all the computers! :D

Nice,

Honestly in my humble opinion, RMS's efforts are noble but in vane. The masses will always refer to the total as Linux before referring to it as GNU/Linux for the same reason we find it easier to remember the hook versus the entire song. What is important is that the originator is still accredited whether by direct or indirect means. In the coming years (perhaps even sooner) the term GNU/Linux will only hold historic value which will do little to hamper or promote its success or demise. (-_-)

Al3xanR0's $0.02

[clearer]

I do not refer to GNU/Linux in my above post, but the kernel, Linux. Also I do not think that whether or not Stallman is a "wacko" or not is relevant to this discussion -- at all. I genuinely apologize for not using simple sentences that would explain this before. I hope this is simple enough.

The GNU project is a major contributor to the system most people refer to as Linux. By far the largest contributor.
The Linux kernel project is a large contributor, but is not even close to being the largest, and it can never become the largest contributor (as it is "only" a kernel).

I find it hard to grasp that anyone could think that it's a great idea to name a whole system after one of the secondary contributors and not -- at least -- including the major contributor. It's like calling every digital image encoded using RGB colours, a red colour component After all, all these images contain some red components.

Since Linux is not part of GNU and it is (relatively) easily swapped with another kernel, I think GNU/Linux is quite reasonable, and not at all long. I would refer to such a system as a GNU system when referring to them orally (Saying GNU-Slash-Linux is just too long and awkward).

[schwim]

I do not refer to GNU/Linux in my above post, but the kernel, Linux. Also I do not think that whether or not Stallman is a "wacko" or not is relevant to this discussion -- at all. I genuinely apologize for not using simple sentences that would explain this before. I hope this is simple enough.

The GNU project is a major contributor to the system most people refer to as Linux. By far the largest contributor.
The Linux kernel project is a large contributor, but is not even close to being the largest, and it can never become the largest contributor (as it is "only" a kernel).

I find it hard to grasp that anyone could think that it's a great idea to name a whole system after one of the secondary contributors and not -- at least -- including the major contributor. It's like calling every digital image encoded using RGB colours, a red colour component After all, all these images contain some red components.

Since Linux is not part of GNU and it is (relatively) easily swapped with another kernel, I think GNU/Linux is quite reasonable, and not at all long. I would refer to such a system as a GNU system when referring to them orally (Saying GNU-Slash-Linux is just too long and awkward).

I don't understand. What exactly do you mean?

thanks,
json

[FriedChips]

screw linux and guhnoo, I gots fedora and that's all that matters. If I recognize anything it is the GPL licensing to be responsible for making it happen(and that you can thank stallman for, nutto whacko jacko job or what-have-you).

[billb]

I don't understand. What exactly do you mean?

I am having difficulty understanding too, what with all the noise from the banjos and the crickets.

[clearer]

I don't understand. What exactly do you mean?

thanks,
json
Too complicated. Don't understand.
Too long words. Too many words.
Use shorter words. Use fewer words.

[Plossl]

This thread reminds me of another thread which is ongoing at linuxquestions.org about file systems. The OP of that thread asks about ReiserFS. (It's in the Slackware area.)

Clearer, it may please you to characterize those who merely disagree with you as being unable to understand your posts - because you're speaking with such sophistication, no less - but you're playing dumb and you know it.

What's more, if you expect any discussion of RMS not to include a mention of his character you're the same as someone who would expect a ReiserFS thread to ignore the fact that he murdered his wife. Whether that fact belongs in a discussion of file systems or not is itself irrelevant. You may say you're idealistic. I say you're naive.

[schwim]

Too complicated. Don't understand.
Too long words. Too many words.
Use shorter words. Use fewer words.

I'm very sorry to bother you again, but if you could use less syllables as well, I would greatly appreciate it.

thanks,
json

[clearer]

This thread reminds me of another thread which is ongoing at linuxquestions.org about file systems. The OP of that thread asks about ReiserFS. (It's in the Slackware area.)

Clearer, it may please you to characterize those who merely disagree with you as being unable to understand your posts - because you're speaking with such sophistication, no less - but you're playing dumb and you know it.

What's more, if you expect any discussion of RMS not to include a mention of his character you're the same as someone who would expect a ReiserFS thread to ignore the fact that he murdered his wife. Whether that fact belongs in a discussion of file systems or not is itself irrelevant. You may say you're idealistic. I say you're naive.

I don't expect people not to mention RMS -- I'd just wish they would ignore him if they don't like him and discuss the topic at hand. Ridiculing people for something completely off-topic is about as effect a way of discussing a topic as is chewing frozen bubblegum to solve a differential equation.

[Plossl]

Ridiculing people for something completely off-topic is about as effect a way of discussing a topic as is chewing frozen bubblegum to solve a differential equation.
Like the length of sentences and words in their posts? Right.

[clearer]

Something like that.

Since I didn't actually see a discussion I thought it didn't make a difference just what my posts contained -- real arguments or ridicule. The latter appeared more effective in this discussion so I decided to give it a go.

[schwim]

I for one am thrilled with the results.

You mis-spelled radical though(ridicule).

thanks,
json

[Plossl]

Something like that.

Since I didn't actually see a discussion I thought it didn't make a difference just what my posts contained -- real arguments or ridicule. The latter appeared more effective in this discussion so I decided to give it a go.
Yes - your rules don't apply to you. I saw that coming a mile away.

[clearer]

Are there any rules? I thought this was no-mans land.

And just how do you come to the conclusion that I have any rules or that I don't abide my own rules? Did I ever mention what you can or cannot do? Have I ever told anyone in this thread that they have to debate by any rules at all? If you are able to answer "yes" then you should check in at your local english teaching school and apply for a course ASAP!

[schwim]

I've applied to my class clearer. Thanks for the suggestion.

thanks,
json

[Plossl]

I don't expect people not to mention RMS -- I'd just wish they would ignore him if they don't like him and discuss the topic at hand.
I'm sure you will continue to parse words. If you're really not a lawyer, you missed your calling.

[clearer]

/ignore Plossl.

[schwim]

I know you're smart and that you're schooling us all, but I feel that I must tell you:

You're not in an IRC channel.

thanks,
json

[rerushg]

Ignoring Stallman's sanity for the moment .....
It seems to me that the gist of his argument is the preservation of his legacy, an understandable desire.
But setting that aside as a "given", the question remains: Is there any benefit, tangible or otherwise, to the Linux community by preserving the "GNU/Linux" reference to this OS?
Blue sky thought: MS puts together an OS based on Linux but chooses to abandon all reference to same, using the justification that "Linux itself abandoned its own roots".

[billb]

Oh wait a minute now ...

http://pleasantfiction.com/Gallery/albums/eBayPhotos/stallman.jpg
Richard Stallman

http://pleasantfiction.com/Gallery/albums/eBayPhotos/black.jpg
Sirius Black from the Harry Potter series

Hmmm...

:cool:

[Plossl]

/ignore Plossl.
Took you long enough. :p

[Dan]

The saddest part of this whole thread ... was the fact that I ended up reading the whole bloody thing!

If there are no further objections ... or comments ...


Dan

[Wayne]

The saddest part of this whole thread ... was the fact that I ended up reading the whole bloody thing!

If there are no further objections ... or comments ...


Dan

What, are we having a race to see who closes this thread first? :D

Wayne

[schwim]

But you guys do agree that he's as crazy as a craphouse rat, right? I mean, regardless of whether you close the thread or not?

Just wondering.

thanks,
json

[bob]

Oh well, NOW the thread has meaning! :D

[bob]

Therefore, it has immediately been closed? (and, it wasn't me) Ah well....

[Wayne]

But you guys do agree that he's as crazy as a craphouse rat, right? I mean, regardless of whether you close the thread or not?

Just wondering.

thanks,
json

From what little I've read of him and I do mean little, yep. I've read even less about the other guy who 'invented' the kernel. I guess 'hero worship' isn't in my dictionary.... :D

Wayne

[Dan]

Therefore, it has immediately been closed? (and, it wasn't me) Ah well.... Nope. It was me.

There is a fine line between excentric/rude, and genius/bug nuts. It strikes me that Stallman plays equally well on either court in order to suit his convenience.

The line between debate among members and derision intended to belittle is not so fine, and clearly in the rear view mirror in this thread.

I just can't see this escaping the shroud of the dark side. Therefore, it is closed. <..:p..>


Dan