Top 10 Things Wrong With Linux

[imdeemvp]

I found this article written on 7/12/02...
http://people.trustcommerce.com/~adam/top10/wrong.html


I personally believe a lot has change since then....what do you guys think?

[Ug]

Moved to Linux Chat with no redirect.

"Suggestions & Feedback" is for stuff relating explicitly to the Forum. ;)

[TopDog]

I belive there are only two issues that NEED to be fixed before "the common people" can/will start using Linux on the desktop and at home, and that is:

1. Drivers for hardware... a pain in the ass today!

2. Installation of software. YUM, YATS, APT-GET, URPMi... regular RPM's... it's all good, but not as easy as dobble-click on an .exe file... there is alway a problem with versions, missing library's, or or "something".

Today, the "easy" systems different distro's have for automated installation is too different from Wintendo for "common people" to want to understand...

But I'm sure this will get easier with time and that Linux has a future as a desktop/home system :)

[ilja]

1. No 'best' browser. <-- Mozilla/Firebird
2. Prompting for a filesystem scan. <--no more problem with it
3. Printing needs to be easier to configure. <-- hmm ok, that's a problem, but there are now many tools
4. Make it easy for the user to find out how to do things. <--see above
5. Cleaner redraws. <-- never minded that
6. Die stray processes, die! <--yes that's interesting but minor
7. Easy way of sharing files. <-- not that big problem with scripts for sambe
8. Sound support. <--yes, but now is alsa in the stable kernel
9. No common editor which supports "soft wrapping." <--I don't know what he wants, but openoffice?
10. No easy way to configure X - especially change resolution on the fly. <-- not a real problem in the most cases

[Thoreau]

http://www.informationweek.com/story/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=18901660

interesting read. goes along with the "10 things wrong"

[Jman]

About that Information Week story about soundcards: it is my impression that hardware vendors build cards for Windows, to get the Windows certified sticker (http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/winlogo/default.mspx). Usually Linux gets no such treatment. Odds are good the sound card passed the Windows hardware requirements, but that only guarenteed compatability with the Windows drivers. Getting Linux drivers is another story.

Fedora's answers to some of the 10 problems:
3. Printing: redhat-config-printer
4. Finding stuff: the entire Main Menu (though I still have to show people where things are)
8. Sound: Can't wait for alsa in kernel 2.6!
9. Soft wrapping editor: gedit
10. Configure X: Preferences > Screen Resolution or System Settings > Display

Keep the constructive criticism coming, it's the best way to improve.

[imdeemvp]

Originally posted by Jman
About that Information Week story about soundcards: it is my impression that hardware vendors build cards for Windows, to get the Windows certified sticker (http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/winlogo/default.mspx). Usually Linux gets no such treatment. Odds are good the sound card passed the Windows hardware requirements, but that only guarenteed compatability with the Windows drivers. Getting Linux drivers is another story.



QUOTE]Originally posted by Thoreau
http://www.informationweek.com/story/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=18901660

interesting read. goes along with the "10 things wrong" [/QUOTE]
Can some one give this guy a copy of Rh9 or mandrake!

again can we say M$ monopoly! :-)

[ewdi]

The thing is, this kind of article would not last long in term of the credibility, because the changes and development on linux is way faster than closed source, by the time the author said this, the next version of a distro overcome it :p

[Thoreau]

by the time the author said this, the next version of a distro overcome it

hahaha

[Prometheus]

I think the biggest problem with linux in general is its half way hardware support. I know its impossible to recognize everything always, but I think linux could go a long way in hardware recognintion. Mounting drives is a pain, nobody really enjoys doing it. Same thing with network cards, playing with sound card to get them to work, etc. Its a pain and nobody really enjoys it. Also, i agree with the need to install files easier. Youd think that by now there would be a linux version of a .exe file that could just install itself and check for the necessary reqs. As for the fact of there not being "one browser" thats what i hate about windows. THey force you to use fricking internet explorer, which REALLY BLOWS. I hate the fact taht everyne deisgns stuff around it and that its the "default" browser. I hate it i hate it i hate it! Ahhhhh. The fact that there shoudl be only one browser is rediculus!

I think once the hardware issues are resolved though and there is a linux version of .exe, Linux would really overpower MS and RULE THE WORLD (insert evil laugh here)!

[logan5]

To me the biggest things is the hardware support. Get more wifi cards working out of the box and do something about USB support. USB is great in windows when you just plug something in and there it is, unplug it and now its gone.

[gin]

Originally posted by tux
The thing is, this kind of article would not last long in term of the credibility, because the changes and development on linux is way faster than closed source, by the time the author said this, the next version of a distro overcome it :p
While I can definatly see your point I would also point out that these issues represented are not new...they are often 5 or more years old (about the same age as my spelling capabaility, apparently). The thing is, while a distro may overcome a "problem" it can be argued that it is not overcome until it is universaly resolved under linux. The next distro will do it a different way and many will not do it at all - ahha, but again, this is the beauty of the beast !!!

Clearly many things have improved under Linux. The lagging hardware support is still an issue, but this will dissolve once vendors take on linux more and more (which we are really starting to see) such that I know some vendors who are writing and releasing code on Linux FIRST. Now in terms of drivers this may be a little more difficult because of the biblical discussions around what is GPL and what is not and what taints the kernel and what does not. Whatever way you look at it vendors like NVIDIA and thir support for the Linux community - whether fully GPL or not - may be a worthy template for others to follow that is more digestable.

The real question is not what is "wrong" with Linux but what do we want it to be! It will not be everything to everyone (though by nature of open source..it could be) simply because it's impracticle to be everything and anything all at once. So, do we want a windows desktop replacement/M$ Basher? Do we want clean fast servers? Do we want more secure code through peer review mechanisms? Yes, we can have pieces from each pie but some "wants" are mutually exclusive and thus can not co-exist (without one disabling the other or the whole system). I certainly think that this is WHY there are distro's or "flavors" of Linux as we allways used to call them.

The Open Source community responds quickest to trends/wants because if a developer wants it she goes and creates it. Commercial endeavors of large enterprises often wait until there are enough customers asking for somethign to create it...smaller companies are more "risk takers" and develop a product before having the customer base but there are TYPICALLY smaller scale. Open Source is bigger than the average company and more responsive that the corporate enterprises. It's the riskiest fastest moving bohemoth I can think of!!

Shoot !! Have I gone off topic? (ed delete me if I have gone nuts)....well trying to drag myself back onto the topic...The Desktop. No, not the window manager, they are all pretty and functional and useful (even if some of them are bloated..hmm isn't MS code bloated and oversized?) I mean the underpinngins, X-Windows.

Is X-Windows still the best/right way for Linux? I still see so many people having one problem or another with getting the desktops to display but ofcourse, it's easy with MS (not saying it's good...just easy). Now, don't think this is a slash at the X-Windows folks..no way. It's a great product when people have it configured properly. It can even perform well too (oh yeah baby!). I just mean, should we not be looking at an alternative now? Removing the legacy and moving on? Unfortunatly I have no idea what we would move on to and perhaps X-Windows is still the right way to be doing it (assuming there ever is/was a right way). In this case, we should be asking our distros to provide better tools (and some do) for getting X-Windows to show up and play ball. That's not necessarily an X-Windows problem. Many distros will use a graphical mode to install but once installed X-Windwos seems to be a hard battle to get going...surely the distro's should know that they installed in a graphical mode and atleast have THAT mode available..even if it isn't the best performing or prettiest etc.

Anyway, Linux rocks, Xorg and XFree guys..thank you and Open Source is the light (I hope to be sourceforging as soon as my company lets me release my vendor neutral firewall log analysis software which I originally called Firewall Analysis Reporting Tool (FART ;)) but now refer to as FwTrends, but see someone else has now coined that. )

-Gin-

[Bana]

Great post Gin, your comments about the 'beauty of the beast' are spot on in my perspective. And taking that example a little further: we shouldn't worry about whether Linux is what everyone else wants, rather, we should take it where WE want it, where I want it, ergo, it will be pulled towards the general good and develop as a whole into the positive territory. This brings up the age old debate of whether society is inately good or evil but oh well. I also agree with you in that X-windows has some problems: If my mom is installing Fedora on her computer and X doesn't boot up (refresh rate settings are wrong) then she is going to have NO idea what to do but that is the way it goes I guess. The only replacement for X that I can see coming in the future is something as a response to M$'s Longhorn (supposedly 3D desktop). But it might just be an evolution of X (which would accomplish the same thing I guess).

(Did you notice the matrix wordage? :p )

Btw: Good luck with your FART initiative hehe. May your code always be open and (bug) free.

[David]

Originally posted by imdeemvp
Originally posted by Thoreau
http://www.informationweek.com/story/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=18901660

interesting read. goes along with the "10 things wrong"
Can some one give this guy a copy of Rh9 or mandrake!

again can we say M$ monopoly! :-)
I'll probably get into trouble for saying this, but if there's one complaint I have of linux above all others it's that the community is a bunch of self-richous MS bashers who have a chip on their shoulder and are all talk and no action.

There's no reason in the world why linux shouldn't be at the leading edge of everything. It's built on Unix, inheriting all of its strengths and has the potential to be optimised to be very fast for dedicated applications like digital signal processing (e.g. gaming, media production), due to its open source nature.

People don't use Windows because MS is a monopoly. MS is a monopoly because people use windows and people use windows because it's better than linux. In fact, just to reinforce my point I'll go on to say that linux dominates the server market despite MS's monopoly because it's better as a server application.

In short, if linux provided an alternative for desktop users, then users and developers would migrate to linux over night and the MS monopoly would come to an end. Heh, I'm sure developers would love to move over to linux with its open source code and its POSIX compliance.

At the end of the day bashing MS for being a successful company is pretty lame and, as far as I can tell, the only reason why somebody would do it is because they're not smart enough to come up with an alternative that's better. If you think linux can be so much better then lets see you do it!

In fact I'm getting so sick of seeing the words "M$" and "Windoze" everywhere I go that I'm tempted to write myself a script to seek out that string and autocorrect it!

Disclaimer: I don't really think you guys are self-richous MS bashers who have a chip on their shoulder and are all talk and no action; I was just letting off steam, you know? Sorry. But this kind of pulling of other peoples hair I see all over the internet just makes me feel like I'm back at school again. Stop it, please. I'm begging you! ;)

PS. Sorry to single out imdeemvp, but it looks like we (I) can't say "M$ monopoly" again, after all :)

[Ug]

Originally posted by David
In fact I'm getting so sick of seeing the words "M$" and "Windoze" everywhere That does irritate me too.

[Prometheus]

I think an inherent problem with Linux currently is that it is trying to go too many directions at once. Its awesome that the developers and people workign on projects are going so many different directions, but it feels like we/they never completely finish or perfect a project/product on all levels before moving onto a new one. It feels like there are a lot of half or 3/4 done projects out there that have great potential, but never get finished. Im not sure why this is, but it just feels that way. Linux has so many possibilities, servers and desktops and so many other branches, and thats what is great about it, but becuase of this no one thing ever gets perfected. Currently, because of this, people using linux have to have quite a bit of knowledge to troubleshoot their systems just to get them up and running correctly. If the community could sit down and perfect the absolute basics and move on from there, either perfect x-windows or some other basic environment, even perfect the kernel for better hardware support etc and had everybody working on one thing until its right or as right as it can be, i think Linux would really surge ahead. Until we hit that point where we have the basics perfected and anybody is able to set it up, Linux will always lag behind MS. Until the basics are perfected or made as close to perfect as possible, we will be spread to thin and never have a great hold or working product in any one area. Thats how i feel anyways.

[Bana]

Originally posted by Ug
That does irritate me too. I didn't realize it bothered people, I only do it as a short hand (MS is less recognizable). But from here on out my ways are changed.In short, if linux provided an alternative for desktop users, then users and developers would migrate to linux over night and the MS monopoly would come to an end. Heh, I'm sure developers would love to move over to linux with its open source code and its POSIX compliance.I have to disagree. If the human race were a purely logical entity, we would have many problems that we don't have now and many problems would completely evaporate (no inhibitions about killing that competitor of yours if you know you can get away with it). But, thank goodness, we are NOT purely logical and as such have other considerations rather than, which one is better. For example, people in general hate change, even though the alternative might be orders of magnitude better, they will stick to the old decrepit option because they are 'comfortable' with it and its quirks.

On a second note: who is able to define the term best anyway? To each his/her own so pick the one you are happiest with and stick with it.

[David]

Prometheus, I agree entirely with your point.

Bana, yeah I was exaggerating a tad :p
But I do think people would move, especially if they were considering having to upgrade to longhorn anyway.

[Prometheus]

Ahhh, i think longhorn is vastly over rated. my friend got a beta rip of it a while ago, and it flet like XP on steroids. No prettier, not much easier to use (actually they just rearranged the menus, again...) just a new face on basically the same system. I didnt look that much, but i think Longhorn is still based off of NT, which is over a decade old in its own right. Time to retire the NT code, just like they did when they retired DOS when they finally stopped making ME.

[mars_hall]

I do a lot of my work with end users. The reason most are on Windows is: that is what came on the computer when they bought it. Windows does have it's advantages for me, viruses! Everytime a new virus is released, my phone rings. I know people are saying that Linux would have the same problems if it was as popular, but I really don't think so. Linux seems to be more of a modular operating system, not as integrated as Windows is. In Windows, one program can write or modify too many other programs. In my experience once a Linux computer is set up and running, It Just Works! just as it was intended to. It may have it's problems getting it set up, and funtioning like you want it to, but once you get it running like you want can use it until the hardware fails. Linux can also be set up on older computers that would be painful to install Windows on. If the majors software companies had more mainstream programs developed to run on Linux, Microsoft would be hurting worse than they are right now.

[JonR]

Originally posted by mars_hall
once a Linux computer is set up and running, It Just Works! just as it was intended to. It may have it's problems getting it set up, and funtioning like you want it to, but once you get it running like you want can use it until the hardware fails.

And therein lies the rub. If you're a Windows user you need two things from Linux as it stands at present.
1. Easier setup - I'm sorry guys but until it's possible to get a Linux system up and going with the same ease as a Windows system the vast majority of computer users (as opposed to enthusiasts) will opt for Windows.
2. A big help to encourage more people to switch would be easier migration between Linux and Windows. That means an easily set-up common file-sharing system. I'm trying to abandon Windows entirely but until I can convince myself that I have Samba sussed and I can recover any Windows created data easily I'm stuck. As it stands Samba seems to be largely a black art. I've found lots of helpful suggestions on these fora but I have to say that none of them have offered me any explanation as to why the fixes they suggest work.

[foolish]

Ease of setup? Anaconda is simpler than the windows installer, by far. Besides, it's much cleaner.

We do our part, you can access windows partitions in linux, but windows can't acces linux. It's windows that has the faults here, not linux.

[JonR]

I don't mean to slag off Anaconda. The fact is that once you've installed Linux (in my experience on three laptops and one desktop so, limited I'll admit) there seems to be a lot more that remains to be done tying up loose ends than is the case with Windows.

Reading Windows partitions is fine but it requires you to commit to Linux to do it. I'm hoping for a migration path which allows me to build a Linux system on my subnet without messing with the existing XP systems. I can then gradually move my work from XP to Linux and if I have any problems my XP box is still there to bail me out. Yeah, I know, I could dual boot but that's loads of hassle for the average user who just wants a working system.

A computer for most people is not an end in itself, it's a tool like a telephone which heps them get on with their work. MS understands this and it's reflected in the degree of auto config they offer in Windows. Linux needs to offer a similarly seamless experience to the average user before it will make real progress against Windows on the desktop.

[wolveso]

Originally posted by foolish
Ease of setup? Anaconda is simpler than the windows installer, by far. Besides, it's much cleaner.

We do our part, you can access windows partitions in linux, but windows can't acces linux. It's windows that has the faults here, not linux.

If my mum picked up an XP CD and I told her to install XP on a new computer, she could - she'd put in the CD, start the computer and choose her language. If she picked up a Fedora CD and I told her to install Fedora on a new computer, she'd ask me to do it - she'd get as far as mentions of root accounts, drive partitions and package dependencies, and run in the other direction. As JonR mentioned, people want a seamless experience - they want to point and click. Even if the auto configuration offered by Windows isn't amazing, it generally works - without the need for my mum to visit technical forums and delve into command lines and configuration files.

Also, I can access my Linux partitions through XP.. explore2fs presents all my Linux partitions with read access, pretty much the same as the NTFS drivers for Linux.

[David]

I agree with Jon; the installation process itself is simple but there were still things I needed to do. Granted, most of it was pretty easy but there were still some niggles, such as getting the graphics drivers working and getting the soundcard working. In fact, if it hadn't been for foolish's excellient howto, plus the help of some of the guys at #fedora, I don't think I'd have been able to do it - well, not without a lot of hastle. This isn't the fault of linux particularly but it's how it is, nontheless.

All in all, it took me about a week to get a fully working desktop system set up and I'm still having troubles with it now, like xine crashing, for example. I hope that many of my problems will be solved in the FC2 release, but that seems to be having teething troubles of its own just at present.

On balance I'd say it was worth the troubles though and I have now fully migrated to linux for personal desktop use. It's still no where near suitable for pro audio use yet, but hopefully that'll change in the next couple of years.

I do feel strongly, though, that the only way for it really to compete with mac and windows is for 3rd party developers to support it. This ultimately means an acceptance of closed source software, which I notice a lot of people in the linux community shun.

[MrWh1t3]

Yeah i think one of the other major things you need to see is more preloaded linux systems out of the box and the sales people to push them...My parents and most parents would not go out buy a diff operating system adn reload it on there computer. also it does need to have an easier install...now for someone that knows somewhat about computers could do it but a lot of people dont and they would get lost. also hardware rec. easy installs things like that...i has a long way...there needs to be like 3 distros of linux and one main desktop be it kde or gnome or whatever you cant have 20 diff things nothing gets perfected...there are things that certain distros have that work better than others..add thoes together into one and you have a kick ass OS...keep it up though A LOT better than what it used to be...

[JonR]

Originally posted by MrWh1t3
keep it up though A LOT better than what it used to be...

Well said MrWh1t3, this thread may be asking "What's wrong..." but lets be thankful for all the hard work that's got us to the point where we can have this discussion.

[wolveso]

Definitely, it's nice to be at a point in time where countless people are using Linux and helping each other. Over the years I've tried Linux, it's developed at an incredible pace and it's only going to get better : )

[Finalzone]

Unreal Tournament 2004 for Linux gamers is only a start.

[sailor]

I found FC1 very easy to install...I don't think it is any harder than windows..just different.....
it certainly is faster for a similar set of software...

[kf6kmx]

Same here.. I think if there was more hardware support more people would be interested..

As far as the Linux version of an '.exe. file, couldnt agree more..
I know many people who have gotten scared off fromLinux because they 'arent programmers, and dont want to try and make something work'..
Most, if not all, of them would be perfectly happy with a much larger file (aka bloated, like a typical M$ download) IF that download carried all the required files 'just in case'.
A lot of m$ programs are in some ways similar to Linux, they dont compile per install, BUT they reuire a lot of support files/required installs.. They carry all of that with them in the install bundle, and the user just isnt aware of it.
Some of the programs I have written for m$ windoze I've used InstallShield.. That basically lets me tell it, other than the prograk itself, ANY other files/etc that are required and the path they have to be in.. then when my end user runs the installer they never know what all was required, they just know it worked..
If something like that was designed for Linux (unpakcs everything, compiles, installs all required support apps, no user intervention) I think we could get a lot of the people that are 'scared' of installing software in linux to actually make the move..
Never tried it, but I was told that Lindows had attempted to do that, but I think they have pretty much failed to draw users to themselves. (possibly due to the registration that is reminiscent of m$)


Originally posted by Prometheus
I think the biggest problem with linux in general is its half way hardware support. I know its impossible to recognize everything always, but I think linux could go a long way in hardware recognintion. Mounting drives is a pain, nobody really enjoys doing it. Same thing with network cards, playing with sound card to get them to work, etc. Its a pain and nobody really enjoys it. Also, i agree with the need to install files easier. Youd think that by now there would be a linux version of a .exe file that could just install itself and check for the necessary reqs. As for the fact of there not being "one browser" thats what i hate about windows. THey force you to use fricking internet explorer, which REALLY BLOWS. I hate the fact taht everyne deisgns stuff around it and that its the "default" browser. I hate it i hate it i hate it! Ahhhhh. The fact that there shoudl be only one browser is rediculus!

I think once the hardware issues are resolved though and there is a linux version of .exe, Linux would really overpower MS and RULE THE WORLD (insert evil laugh here)!

[stevewabc]

Be A newbe here using linux for about 2 yrs now and never plain on using or learning coding Here are my 2 cents for what is worth:

1. I must start by saying Linux has come a long ways but a long ways to go. Redhat has one of the nice Default Fonts out there as well as the Applications layout, varyclean and crisp...
2. Drivers for hardware - Big Problem I think
3. Installation of software and Package's - More control over Packages to pick from in fedora.. this part just drives me nuts.. After a fresh install Then its time to start un-installing things that are not needed. - By the way after a friend showing me how to use yum It rocks!!!
4. X Configure - one thing SuSE has going for them - on the install It will load all Video Cards Yast is A great tool!!
5.Doc.s The Basics to fedora - For newbe's This may be the bigest thing I would Have No Problem Paying For them.. Yes I no there are books out there for linux but Lets look again at SuSE Books that come with The Box Vr. Vary Easy to follow and move foward in. Thank God or I may have went back to M$ today we are Free of M$...
6. After looking back at what Im pointing out here Linux (fedora) real has come along way !!!!

[Shadow Skill]

I am reletively new to linux and I must say that Fedora Core 2 is the best distro I have tried. (This forum has helped me quite a bit. I have had only one doomsday scenario which required a reformat since I started using FC2. FC3 had better not completely nuke my current setup.) My major issues with Linux (Not counting the obvious lack of hardware support.) are
1. The insane obsession with the CLI
2. The lack of an install framework that genuinely solves dependencies and ALWAYS finds libraries when they are installed into the default directories. Today I had to fight for an hour to get Fluxbox's craptapular wallpaper manager to work right I probably broke Eterm doing it since I had to force it to install because it wasn't finding two libraries Enlightenment had already installed. When you are installing it should either find the #### libraries or prompt you to download them from a url given by the application's maintainer, or better still a universal library source code database where as many projects as possible (Hopefully every one of them.) upload the relevant files for thier software so as to all but eliminate the library hunt and keep downloads lean at the same time; while offering comprehensive dependency solving and ease of use. There should also be an advanced option during installation of all packages to allow for advanced customizations using a form not the various CLI flags etc. (CLI method will definetly be maintained I see no reason to turn Linux into windows but graphical installs with advanced option forms is what Linux needs. Apt, yum, etc are the prototypes for this. )

3. Rather pathetic multimedia support namely video playback. (If you are into Anime you might have a better understanding of what my gripe is.) I am not talking about simple mpeg or avi playback, try playing files with multiple streams with the current players out there. You either go with a CLI based player which forces you to type ssomething like mplayer -alang jap -slang eng /mnt/windows/Dump/Anime/Eva/eva01.divx511.mkv

The makers of this particular program have to be insane to think someone wants to type a command that long to get a video file with multiple streams to play when there absolutely should already be a keyboard shortcut to switch audio/subtitle tracks on the fly since the program can read all of the streams on load. [Keep in mind that that long command example seems to be the only genuine way to get subtitle streams to display that I know of since I have not managed to do this from gmplayer.]

Videolan seems to be the only reasonable choice at this time and even that has some issues that don't seem to exist with the windows port. While I realize this isn't so much the fault of linux itself as it is the fault of the individual developers I just feel that linux players should be able to handle open source formats (like Matroska and .OGM) as well as windows does, in short its a hassle to play these types of formats on Linux at this point. More developers need to get involved.

4. Multiple sounds at once: While there are probably some distros that do not have this problem at all, I see absolutely no reason why sound mixing should not be the default for any self respecting distro (gives Fedora a dirty look.) there is no rason that anyone should have to do a websearch for that or come to these boards in the case of Fedora. (Thanks to whoever posted the code to to turn on sound mixing with Alsa btw.)

5. While I realize that full read/write support for NTFS has in fact been achieved(Anyone know how safe it is? I do not want to try it and end up ##### my 230gb dump drive and definetly not my windows primary drive.) Some distro's (Fedora again) do not include at the least NTFS read support out of the box, I see no legitimate reason not to have this out of the box. (There is no way in hell Microsoft could ever win a lawsuit against anyone who provided NTFS read/write support seeing as people will always have the right to dual boot operating systems on machines that they own, so Fedora needs to cut the crap on this one and just have built in read [and optional write if it is safe.] support in thier next release.

I also believe that the major desktop distro's (Mandrake, Debian, Suse, and Redhat (Fedora) ) need to come together and push for more standardization of the Linux community. Developers will still be able to do thier own thing and the OS formed by the big four will be compatible but other than that there will be one all around standard for things. (The community is still horribly fragmented at this point regardless of what some people will have us think.) Let's also face the fact that we may have to go for a "pay for" OS in the future if we are ever going to get more complete hardware support without inccuring legal wrath every six seconds. I think Suse's price for thier OS is quite reasonable. (Sure as hell beats the price for OSX, or Windows.) The recent release of Hp's Linux bundled Laptop does still leave the door open for Linux to remain largely free if more vendors catch on. (which is very possible.)

[Daizy]

I think people here are too quick off the mark with the setup.exe thing I think...

Has anyone enjoyed the loki installers ease of use? (I'm sure at first they have, but not when they realise it's downfalls i.e-- Please insert your CD, no that's not your CD, I want it mounted somewhere else!)

I've found a really nice installer called Bitrock Installbuilder that is as close to Installshield Wizard as I would want it to be (I hate Install Shields evil licenses with comapnies, NWN couldn't use a GUI installer with their Linux version because of them).

Take a look at the Screenshots here:

http://www.bitrock.com/products_installbuilder_screenshots.html

(BTW this isn't an advert, in fact I don't want any company to get as monopolistic and dismissive of customers needs as InstallShield obviously are).

aMSN already uses this installer (which comes as a .bin which you can double click on any system) try it out.

http://prdownloads.sourceforge.net/amsn/amsn-0.94-linux-installer.bin?download

I reckon that all the other reasons people have for thinking linux is sub-standard are very close to being twarted. The main reasons for these problems are the same as most peoples problems with linux users - A few(?) are Pig-headed and opinionated and don't seem to think b4 they speak unfortunately. But aren't we all in our own little way?

Sadly, when our own developers won't speak or listen to their users ideas, that's where the problems come in for software and ease of use.

Oh yeah, ShadowSkill, your problem with the commandline mplayer thing has been a real annoyance to me, unfortunatey mplayers developers are well known for being *ahem* just like I said about the minority(?) of Linux users. If they carry on like this, no-one will want to use their software because they will have implemented a 'How God-damned Newbie Are You?' wizard that tell's you what their developers think of you on gmplayers startup to save them time!

[Shadow Skill]

Well to update you I have found a very good replacement for both Mplayer and Videolan, called Totem..it plays every file except wmv [can't even get that to work in mplayer yet mind you..its a codec issue.] files perfectly. The only gripes I have is in regards to the interface while fully functional is slightly cumbersome, no right click context menu for subs and switching audio tracks like vlc, and there also don't appear to be any keyboard shortcuts for this. But it totally kicks Mplayers apostate ass! :D quite frankly if the totem browser plugin can be made to do what I want [play windows type media formats in browser.] I will promptly remove and never again install Mplayer and keep vlc as a back up.

[lkennedy]

I think a lot of people are on the right track here. I don't use windows anymore, but I prefer the fact that I can:

1. Cick on a link, download and run it, have a program group appear and thats it.
For example I use Citrix to get to my work. On windows, the plug installs automatically the first time I log in. No configuration - it just works. On linux I:

Download a tar.GZ file (something like ICAClient.tar.GZ)
open a terminal window
su to root
uncompress it
untar it
cd to the directory ICAClient
run a shell script
create a sym link to the plug in in my browser's directory.

The is it certainly not the best install, but its also not the worst. Citrix is not an obsure product. I believe you would have lost most people after the download.


I think the question to ask on everything is "Could your mum do it ? ".

I think Linux has come down in complexity to the level of windows 3.1. But it is still not as easy as XP.

If there is any feature a user needs to go to the command line for, it isn't ready for home use.

I think Xandros is 99% there, but Fedora is way off.

Having said that, it suits me a lot better, but I am a dba & unix admin, so not a normal user at all.

[ravalox]

The two major things I think linux needs are less elitism and I think linux needs a killer app. Something home users couldn't get anywhere else. I think linux sort of has this in the professional world, I mean a free webserver, how can you beat that. But I think there has to be something on the homefront that creates more of a need for it. Right now in the desktop world it sort of resides in the hobbyist category.

[imdeemvp]

linux needs a killer app.
We already have killer apps such open office, abiword, firefox browser (way better than IE), GIMP, and more. What linux need is to be more user friendly. That is why mandrake is so popular.

[Shadow Skill]

I think he's going for a sort of halo 2 of Linux applications, my personal bet would have been a working relational database file system to completely suck the life out of the eventual longhorn winfs service pack which I fully expect to nuke many ntfs drives...

[imdeemvp]

what do you mean by that?

[lgerber]

I've been trying different Linux distros for years now and what stops me dead in my tracks is not the hardware, not the "killer apps" but the complexity of installing a simple program. Until installing a simple downloaded program is as simple as a click and answering a few questions Linux will never be for the average person. The people that write the code are not average users so I wonder if that is why nothing gets written to do a SIMPLE install. Whoever writes a "Linux Installer" will be a very popular person. It could be done with a simple batch file in Windows.......

[sej7278]

I don't think I agree with much of what he says, my pet hates are:

1. Installation - you'll never get on the mainstream desktop whilst you still have to compile or use a mixture of yum, apt, rpm etc.

2. Wireless - not great support there, especially for the faster "standards".

3. DVD, well I guess that's more the MPAA's fault than Linux', but playing or ripping DVD's is not too easy on Linux, nor is a lot of other multimedia (for Heaven's sake, even MP3's require installing more software!)

[andylorne]

People don't use Windows because MS is a monopoly. MS is a monopoly because people use windows and people use windows because it's better than linux. In fact, just to reinforce my point I'll go on to say that linux dominates the server market despite MS's monopoly because it's better as a server application.
People use Windows because they're forced to at present. i.e There is no competition as far as ease of use goes! Fedora Linux seems to be on the verge of being able to be shipped to the average user. As stated above, software installation and hardware support need standardising and sorting bigtime but once the hardware's there the KDE learning curve isn't that far away from learning to use Windows.
I've got no problems with my Windows box. It's fast, stable and runs well as long as it has an AntiVirus, Spyware remover, Application firewall and you reboot it after it's eaten all it's RAM.
The fact is that Linux is more efficient and KDE is a superior Window manager. When the support and standardization finally come through Microsoft will finally have competition.

[baz2a]

I think an inherent problem with Linux currently is that it is trying to go too many directions at once. Its awesome that the developers and people workign on projects are going so many different directions, but it feels like we/they never completely finish or perfect a project/product on all levels before moving onto a new one. It feels like there are a lot of half or 3/4 done projects out there that have great potential, but never get finished. Im not sure why this is, but it just feels that way. Linux has so many possibilities, servers and desktops and so many other branches, and thats what is great about it, but becuase of this no one thing ever gets perfected. Currently, because of this, people using linux have to have quite a bit of knowledge to troubleshoot their systems just to get them up and running correctly. If the community could sit down and perfect the absolute basics and move on from there, either perfect x-windows or some other basic environment, even perfect the kernel for better hardware support etc and had everybody working on one thing until its right or as right as it can be, i think Linux would really surge ahead. Until we hit that point where we have the basics perfected and anybody is able to set it up, Linux will always lag behind MS. Until the basics are perfected or made as close to perfect as possible, we will be spread to thin and never have a great hold or working product in any one area. Thats how i feel anyways.


can't state it any better than this. although the linux os rocks because of the variety, but fundamental items should be completed and locked in stone. most of the low level, low end portions should be completely finalized before distro developers start making additional changes.

[baz2a]

I don't think I agree with much of what he says, my pet hates are:

1. Installation - you'll never get on the mainstream desktop whilst you still have to compile or use a mixture of yum, apt, rpm etc.

2. Wireless - not great support there, especially for the faster "standards".

3. DVD, well I guess that's more the MPAA's fault than Linux', but playing or ripping DVD's is not too easy on Linux, nor is a lot of other multimedia (for Heaven's sake, even MP3's require installing more software!)


1. install is fine with fc 3 using rpm. however retrieval, install, update and removal of programs needs to be standardized

2. only compaint with wireless is firmware and any additional info is added. my smc 2802w pci wireless works beautifully, but heaven help me if i lose the firmware file

3. multimedia will be a problem with fc/redhat but we all know the reasons why (mostly licensing hells) however can't really complain about not being able to rip DVD's, technically that's not supposed to be done under any reason. (i'll stand corrected if wrong on this one)

[Shadow Skill]

what do you mean by that?

What I mean is he is probably thinking of an application that is so "l33t" that all you can do is bow down before its power. An application that makes all others before it or at least the reigning king in that category look like a piece of garbage. Think Firefox and IE.

[crackers]

No such animal (anymore) unless a completely unprecedented break-through in computational thinking begats a totally radical paradigm shift. Robert X. Cringely wrote about "killer-apps" over 10 years ago in "Accidental Empires" (still an excellent read). What we see, such as the reference between Firefox and IE, is evolutionary progress, not revolutionary leaps.

VisiCalc was revolutionary - everything else is bells and whistles.

[Shadow Skill]

Not true at all, I can think of one concept that will make conventional filesystems look like a joke. With longhorn Microsoft plans on introducing Winfs, which if I understand things correctly is nothing more than a relational database adopted to index the entire computer's contents. If done correctly this could greatly speed up file searching by creating a database that points to the files instead of relying on the current folder structure, that the computer can refer to instead of rescanning the entire directory for changes. Now I am totally confident that the eventual Winfs service pack [They had to take it out of the eventual launch version cause they were stupid and wasted resources on that virus known as xp service pack 2 instead of using them to work on Longhorn.]will completely nuke existing Longhorn ntfs drives because they will either screw up and not have Longhorn tag every single file ever put onto the drive, or they will try to have the service pack guess the tags on its own there by royally ###ing the system. I think Linux has a great opprotunity to steal Microsoft's thunder by getting this concept to work right prior to Longhorn's launch.

[jult]

People don't use Windows because MS is a monopoly. MS is a monopoly because people use windows and people use windows because it's better than linux. In fact, just to reinforce my point I'll go on to say that linux dominates the server market despite MS's monopoly because it's better as a server application.

In short, if linux provided an alternative for desktop users, then users and developers would migrate to linux over night and the MS monopoly would come to an end.
Exactly. I would be a 'lamer', for loving stuff about many different operating systems? Of course not.

Try beating something like Total Commander in Windows 2000 with any linux application. There simply isn't anything even coming close. Not to mention an audio-suite like that of Sonic Foundry (now Sony), or stuff like Fruityloops.

What I would change about linux is the weird and cryptic directory-structure. If you give it a name, give it a name, not some far fetched 3-letter code with a hidden meaning. Really, /etc and /bin and /var and /dev and things like that, no way in hell that those will ever be seen as user-friendly.

[jult]

People use Windows because they're forced to at present. i.e There is no competition as far as ease of use goes!I have never been forced to use it, I have stumbled upon it, since it has never cost me much (I was involved with fidonet/bbs and early warez scenes) and the things I could use it for were exactly those I wanted for what I needed to do with computers, and often more than that. Windows UI and configurability still outruns that of Mac and Linux. It lets me look under the hood if I really want that, and if you're smart enough, you can have it do whatever you want it to do.

It's not so much the kitchen as it is the cook.

[crackers]

Not true at all, I can think of one concept that will make conventional filesystems look like a joke. With longhorn Microsoft plans on introducing Winfs, which if I understand things correctly is nothing more than a relational database adopted to index the entire computer's contents.
Er, sorry - it's already been done: OS/400 (IBM) uses this very concept. It's not new, it's just new to the platform. And I seem to remember a KDE/QT-based project that's already done it for the Linux platform. Besides, as you've noted, it's not shipping with Longhorn - it'll be available as an external Beta add-on. If WinFS ever actually ships, it'll be 2007 or later. I wouldn't blame the lateness of WinFS on SP2 - Microsoft has been promising this "feature" for 10 years or so. I think they just haven't figured out a way to make it work with the existing hardware without bringing the entire system to it's metaphorical knees.

[Shadow Skill]

Your missing a key point here..how many people [IE non nerds] would actually know its been done? Being the second or even third to do something does not render creating a revolution impossible being the first to make something actually take off is far more important than actually inventing it. [Just look at the computer itself whose basic logic has been around for centuries, by your logic computers are not revolutionary at all, because you make a false distinction between evolving what already exists in concept or otherwise and creating something that has never existed before. There is no distinction in reality.

[mndar]

Linux is still not a very good option for the average user, primarily because of the hardware compatability issues. Even if he/she manages to setup a working machine, the configuration and tweaking is too tedious. Something else i have noticed is that the clarity of fonts is not as good as in Windows.
The main reason for Linux not capturing the entire PC market ( which given its features and performance, IT SHOULD!! ) is the wide range of Linux Distros. Yes Hardware manufacturers do want the Windows Certification but thats only because Windows has been the default operating system for many years. The moment the number of Linux distros become streamlined, hardware manufacturers will start making compatible products and probably ship the linux drivers with them. They will be the ones trying to make their hardware work with Linux and not the other way round!!
As far as performance goes, yes, Linux is much better and since its open-source you can (if you want to) know what actually is going on and customize it. A average user doesn't need or rather doesn't want such detailed control. I think that the very concept of open-source , its emphasis on customization and tweaking has pushed away many "wanna be" linux users.
Developers must now aim at making more stable and user-friendly versions rather than trying to tweak performance. The major advantage Linux has is that since its been developed by everyone around the world, many people know specific details about the system. Microsoft does not and probably will never have such advantage. Providing services for installations in Offices, Institutions could become a big business once Linux establishes itself.

[crackers]

The moment the number of Linux distros become streamlined, hardware manufacturers will start making compatible products and probably ship the linux drivers with them. They will be the ones trying to make their hardware work with Linux and not the other way round!!
Unfortunately, you seem to have several misconceptions about:

1) licensing (FOSS vs. proprietary)
2) how drivers interact with the kernel

It's not the "number of Linux distros" that is preventing hardware support, but the lack of a monetary stream from the (perceived) number of Linux users using the hardware. It's quite easy for a hardware manufacturer to supply their drivers for any Linux distribution - just look at the NVidia installer as an example. The question, for them, is "is there any monetary gain by doing so?" NVidia seems to think so, and they've become the defacto "standard" for accelerated graphics on Linux systems. (Just look at the number of posts regarding ATI problems!)

As I've said time and time again, it's a chicken-and-egg problem: you'll get drivers when more users are using Linux, but you won't get more users if there aren't drivers. It's a slow process to resolve this conundrum.

[Shadow Skill]

I wish Logitech would release drivers for my bluetooth Keyboard Linux just absolutely hates the thing, and it leaves me in a perpetual state of "boot and pray." But you are definetly right Crackers Linux is going to have to attract the normal people if Linux is really going to take off.

[OberonKenObi]

Hi all
Mention is made of there beig no .exe for Linux, that as far as I'm concerned is a strength not a weakness.
I am a relative newbie and I can see no problem with the Yum repository installs. You can just use it to update ALL, some or specific programs. APT-GET is similar I believe. Let me see ONE command on the CLI lets me do all that and I feel like a cool Geek. And if you dont wish to get your hands dirty there is always (the usually slower) Up2Date GUI clicky thing, heck it even runs at startup and prompts you to update.
The only problems I see from novices like me is some of the names are a bit cryptic, but they are getting more intuitive. CUPS what the...? why not call it CUPS in one column and a printer setup utility in another, it could even be a setup option in the installer to say tick this box if "I am A Novice user, give me simple names please, (or some such).
Some errors you get are a bit wobbly too, sure let those who know what "Error#2" is fix it by diving into the command line, but have a simple gui version of "So you have an Error, please type it into the box provided and I'll decode it for you" sort of like a pro and home version if you please. This could be all setup at install, with the option to later change to pro as your skill lvl rises (try doing that with WinXP) but I digress.
Overall happy with FC2, got it to do most things I need except play games (damn you Verant/SOE for EverQuest!!) so this guy will have no choice but to have Linux on one machine and Win XP (Game OS lol) on the other.

Regards
Allan

[awdac]

The only problems I see from novices like me is some of the names are a bit cryptic, but they are getting more intuitive.

Well, that's because Microsoft keeps stealing the generic as if they invent everything (cf. Windows, SQLServer, Internet Explorer, etc.). They've figured out that that gives everything they do a sense of fundamental soundness and propriety--and it was brilliant from a marketing perspective, but I swear I dont know how they can defend some of those things as trademarks. Oh, yeah I do...$$$$$.
But you're right on the other extreme you have CUPS, Mozilla, k3b, et al. that really seem as if they're *trying* to confuse you. Maybe they will find that middle ground.


Some errors you get are a bit wobbly too, sure let those who know what "Error#2" is fix it by diving into the command line, but have a simple gui version of "So you have an Error, please type it into the box provided and I'll decode it for you" sort of like a pro and home version if you please.
I don't know about you, but I've always found the error reporting and logging to be far superior in Linux to Microsoft or Mac (although Mac may have changed--I haven't used one in many years). I get exceptions all the time in Windows that have lots of 8x0073 or whatevers in them, and I look in the event log and there are just more of those things. At least syslog makes sense, or tries. And most of the important services even have their own logs in /var/log. Mix that with Google and the FOSS community and you've got better support than legions of prop. tech support in Washington, Texas, or India.

[OberonKenObi]

Yep awdac, I agree with the old "I get exceptions all the time in Windows that have lots of 8x0073 or whatevers" point taken.
But I was refering to the Linux version of the errors of why, for example my modem fails to dial. Windows will (generally) say you failed because your password was wrong or modem not plugged in etc.
Linux says "Failed to dial because of error 8" Now this information is somewhere of what error 8 actually is, so all I say is to give users the Text version of it either straight up or make it an option. I gave up using FC2 for a while as I could not see why my modem would not dial (wrong username, small typo) and error 8 meant nothing to me. Until I came here to the forum i was bewildered.
I know this is a very specific example but it can be transfered to many other situations im sure.
Having said all that, I would prefer to struggle with a problem that has a resolution in configuration and not re-installation.
Hey maybe that can be a catch cry

LINUX: Configuration, Not Re-installation. But I digress again.

Regards
Allan

[awdac]

That's interesting Allan, but I guess it does depend on the application. I get on one of the programmers like that at work all the time for printing useless garbage errors because he doesn't want to case all the exceptions. generallly I do find Linux better for what I've used anyway. And you're right about the configuration vs. reinstallation. I used to reload Windows out of necessity (and still do on a couple of boxes) mostly because of the registry. After a while it just sucks. No cleaner or anything will work because they will end up breaking something or other when it gets too clogged. No one has ever explained the registry to me in such a way that it makes sense. Maybe that's why I'm always happier on a Unix-like system. Except Solaris sometimes. But that's a whole other discussion...;)

Cheers.

[crackers]

Regarding "cryptic error messages" - firstly, the reason they're cryptic is that you're not supposed to be getting them. You've probably hit a fringe case that the developers either never even thought of or it's down a code path that "just shouldn't happen." (Even after over 20 years pounding code, those can still bite you.)

Regarding "cryptic application names" - some may seem cryptic until you find out what they mean, like the Common Unix Printing System, aka "cups." Also remember, FOSS programs don't have a marketing department to come up with the "cutesy" names. Personally, I found "TurboTax" to be the biggest oxymoron, right next to "Microsoft Works."

awdac - I'm with you on the Solaris bit. ;)

[awdac]

R Personally, I found "TurboTax" to be the biggest oxymoron, right next to "Microsoft Works."
ROTFLMAO :D

[Shadow Skill]

You know there are two kinds of lies in this world, there are lies and then there are damned lies. The idea that the way windows handles making sure every program knows where the dependencies it needs to run are [the registry] is an efficient way to handle the issue is a lie, but just as the windows implementation of a registry being efficient is a lie the idea that decentralized package management spread over multiple individual dependencies actually has any real chance in hell of working when its not even as organized as Warez groups is a damned lie. I do not know how many times I have encountered software that would not install because of conflicts or supposedly missing dependencies [even after compiling them from the actual source code itself...] Quite frankly I wish all the binary fanboys would just go away and someone would implement a graphical script for the ./configurecommand. Maybe then we would have total distrobution transparency and we would not have to waste peoeple's time with binary types that are so pathetic that often they simply don't realize that a dependency is actually installed. I think the people who made the xfce installer bin scripts or the developers of Gentoo are on the right track. However not even straight source code will suffice if there is not simply a sure fire way to find a deoendency if it is already installed. The only other way to deal with a source compile not finding a dependency is to either have a conditional statement in the code that will cause it to fall back onto the dependency included with the actual program that requires it [This method has the best chance of working period, it will make downloads larger however.] or you have a special part of the code actually download the source for you at your discrecion from the same place you downloaded the app you want to actually use. This stupid repository stuff needs to be put in its rightful place far underground in a casket where only worms can get to it. All the repositories actually do is introduce version confusion and incompatibility and they can hardly be considered distrobution transparent. I don't know about the rest of you but I am willing to deal with slightly larger downloads and somewhat longer [by comparison] install times if that means I can go to the same places for the apps I want regardless of what flavor I use and I can be somewhat assured that there will be no conflicts.

[Unkemptwolf]

Red Hats RPM GUI isn’t bad, but there is always room for improvement. As far as package management goes I think the following things need to be added:

1. A graphic list of installed packages, so I can remove them without a command line.

2. When I uninstall a package, I want all the packages that require it to be uninstalled, and I wanted to know what they are (via a pop-up), just in case something depends on it that I didn't know about.

3. When I install a package, there needs to be a yum-like program that retrieves my dependencies for me, or else they need to be included with the installer.

4. RPM headers should contain a brief description of the program, and this should be displayed in the package manager.

5. There should be a "Get New Programs" button, which is basically a front end for "yum list" that doesn't show packages that are already installed. Combine this with the RPM descriptions, and I'll never need to look for a program on the internet again (take that Windows)!

One of the most annoying things about it though, is when you have a package installed, and but one of it dependents keeps saying its not there. This seems to be more of a problem with the package manager than the RPMs themselves, but it’s a minor bug fix (even if it’s a major problem), so hopefully it will be solved soon. Personally, I've been playing with Linux (specifically RH) since 7.3, and the difference between 7.3 and FC3 is about the same as from 3.1 to XP. The biggest difference is it only took Linux about 3 years to come that far. Personally, I think Linux will be ready for “Joe Sixpack” sometime in the next 2 years, if it keeps going at its current rate. All that’s really missing is some polish.

[pamount]

You know there are two kinds of lies in this world, there are lies and then there are damned lies.

Actually, there are three kinds of lies. The third one being statistics :-)

[JonR]

1. A graphic list of installed packages, so I can remove them without a command line.

2. When I uninstall a package, I want all the packages that require it to be uninstalled, and I wanted to know what they are (via a pop-up), just in case something depends on it that I didn't know about.

3. When I install a package, there needs to be a yum-like program that retrieves my dependencies for me, or else they need to be included with the installer.

4. RPM headers should contain a brief description of the program, and this should be displayed in the package manager.

5. There should be a "Get New Programs" button, which is basically a front end for "yum list" that doesn't show packages that are already installed. Combine this with the RPM descriptions, and I'll never need to look for a program on the internet again (take that Windows)!

Try Cobind: http://cobind.com/download_yumgui.html

[imdeemvp]

Actually, there are three kinds of lies. The third one being statistics :-)if there is proof to support statistics than is not a lie, that what dominates the medicine world.

[sailor]

Unkemptwolf
What you have described is for the most part is Synaptic + Apt

Suse has YAST which does pretty much all you have described....now, I have heard that YAST has been released to GPL and I for one would welcome it as a part of FC.

[jdinkel]

Somebody said yum is good, but not as easy as double-clicking a .exe to install a program. I just want to say, I disagree. I rather prefer yum, namely for it's built in automatic updating ability. Yeah, Windows has Windows Update, but that is just for Windows. Yum works for not just the OS, but EVERYTHING. I would rather prefer the standard to be for software vendors to setup their yum repositories and if it's free then just add the repository and then yum install software, or if it is to purchase software, then have some way to pay to connect to their yum repository.

[crackers]

Actually, there are three kinds of lies. The third one being statistics :-)
Benchmarks. That makes four.

[imdeemvp]

How do you guys buy your products? statistics and bechmarks I believe are essential.... :confused:

[awdac]

How do you guys buy your products? statistics and bechmarks I believe are essential.... :confused:

Well...
1. Experience
2. Experience/recommendations of trusted peers/colleagues
3. Trials/demos in as-similar-as-possible-to-my-real-world situations

...in that order.

And then a distant fourth *maybe* is statistics/benchmarks. There's toomuch marketing involved in statistics and benchmarks, and it's all too easy for something to look good in certain comparisons that are totally irrelevant to your particular application. Which incidentally is what makes them look like lies...;)

[imdeemvp]

Well...
1. Experience
2. Experience/recommendations of trusted peers/colleagues
3. Trials/demos in as-similar-as-possible-to-my-real-world situations That sums it up...to statistics, benckmarks and even opinions...

[Zigzagcom]

I agree with David!!! Hadn't it been for Windows, I would not have gotten involved with Linux. Computing is computing, and some young kid had an idea and business savvy and took off with the idea. It was a very successful evolution for Microsoft. Much of the economy benefits from that. Of course it has also become a double edged sword in terms of the power that MS wields. Abusive business tactics are not to be taken lightly, and hopefully the open source community can counter the effects. I am hopeful, because I am part of it now. I can learn and pass my knowledge on to others, as others are passing their knowledge on to me, for which I am grateful. I feel good, because I know that I have helped some friends with far more experience than I, simply because I've been hacking away, (for lack of a better term), in my individual fashion.

I also agree with Bana. By doing and contributing we can make a difference, not just waiting for it to happen.
I've started a little late in the game, so I may not become a developer, but even being a good guinea pig is something... :eek: ...and getting angry at MS because one feels ripped off or getting angry at *nix because it takes effort...isn't that a funny situation to be in? :)


:p oops...I posted in reply to a post from page one, kinda late...