Linux companies, I just handed you gold.

[Hiltonizer]

“What’s stopping you, other than you? Nothing.”

This is a phrase commonly heard by sales people in all areas. As cliché and cheesy as it may be, fortunately or unfortunately, it is true.

To the uneducated, outside, world, Linux is viewed as a command-line only operating system reserved exclusively for servers and elitist geeks. Linux has no sex appeal whatsoever to those who don’t actually know the truth. We as Linux users know this is not the case, and that Linux is capable of absolutely anything.

We all know that pretty much any piece of Windows-Only Software has a free and possibly superior native equivalent. While this is fantastic, that doesn’t exactly make a compelling case for your average Joe to convert. Of course, the small population of malware for Linux could be compelling; yet Joe would just assume deal with some pop-ups and pay for/pirate software instead of “learning” anything new. By learning, I mean trying.

So here is my question to you. Why do many of us keep a dual boot setup? Why do some of us buy a $500 Playstation or Xbox? Do I really need to answer this question? Games. Games. Games.

“Great, so what is your point?” is now what you’re asking. Well, we’ve already seen that targeting peoples logic bone isn’t enough to make them switch, if it was EVERYONE would be using Linux and not Windows. But apparently, tickling the entertainment bone is enough to have someone buy a $500 computer that hooks up to a low-resolution TV, and doesn’t get any work done. That’s why Xbox and Playstation are so huge.

“But Hiltonizer, Microsoft and Sony throw fortunes into advertising, and therefore game companies develop titles for them”. Precisely. While there are some awesome free/open games out there for Linux, and a hand full of commercial ones… unless there is some marketing to drive demand, gaming on Linux will never even compare to Microsoft/Sony.

RedHat, Novell, Xandros, Canonical… I hope one of you is paying attention, I’m handing you a formula for amazing success. THROW SOME MONEY AT GAMING!!!!!

RedHat, build a “RedBox” to compete with Xbox, or Canonical… build an “UbuStation”. Somebody… DO SOMETHING! Hire some Game developers, loan some developers to ATI and Nvidia so that their drivers no longer suck… become a majority shareholder in some game publisher. QUIT SITTING THERE HOPING PEOPLE START USING YOUR PRODUCT! MAKE IT COMPELLING!

If you make these games capable of running on the desktop version of your OS (Fedora, Ubuntu, Suse), desktop users will now have another benefit to switch over from Windows. This will create a snow-ball effect. There is no need to buy a $500 Playstation when you have a $300 computer. Why not just have an $600-800 computer??

Now that home users are starting to use Linux, this makes it a heck of a lot easier for business to do the same. Cha-Ching.

I know you aren’t making any money off the OS itself so it’s kinda silly from a business standpoint to hope sales of games will return on the investment you made in the whole gaming project. But a vast amount of these new users will buy the retail packages from stores. Even if they don't, it still increases your install base. This may lead to OEM opportunities which can be profitable. But this is all irrelevant; You need an install base before you can profit.

The whole idea is to open Linux to everyone. Linux companies, quit sitting on your hands hoping that the last piece of the puzzle finds its own way. Do something about it. There is no one stopping you but you.

[Nefarious]

Makes sense. After a demand for games on Linux is present, a next step would be to get Game Developers together with Kernel/OS Developers to develop a Gaming Linux Distro. Virtually turning your PC into a fully customizable Gaming Console. Not only will it be able to keep up with Technology but it will be able to keep up with Software, with bugs, security and newest versions. If done right, you'd virtually eliminate the need for Gaming Consoles like XBox and PS2 altogether. Atleast, in my opinion that is.

[strikeforce]

While your opinion is quite valid. You have to convince the people at RedHat that it truly is the key.

Follow this thread if you please.

https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-marketing-list/2006-April/msg00112.html

There's another post in the marketing list somewhere that says that they believe that if business start using linux then the cosumers will start using linux.

In other words your comments about end users starting with linux then filtering into business is the opposite of their thought pattern. I'll try and find it and edit my post but as of yet I haven't been able to.

[Firewing1]

Search the forums for Surge, check out the site. Cypher345, rappermas, to name some are making a really cool game engine. I think it's going to turn out nicely.
Firewing1

[Hiltonizer]

There's another post in the marketing list somewhere that says that they believe that if business start using linux then the cosumers will start using linux.


Unfortunately, I don't think RedHat will ever look at things the way I do. They are very successful on the business side of things, far more than any other distribution. The only company that seems to align with my concept is Canonical (makers of Ubuntu). Ubuntu is pulling out all the stops of making in the largest linux desktop install base. It is working. Based on distrowatch numbers and digg articles... ubuntu is infinitely larger amongst end users than Fedora.

As of Ubuntu Dapper, a server version was released... this being a few releases after it became the largest desktop.

IT staff and decision makers at companies are just like us, consumers. You need to win them over on the consumer side before they put their jobs on the line bringing it into their workplace.

[strikeforce]

Whether or not you or I agree it is irrelevant. I've used ubuntu but don't at the moment.

They do things their way and fedora does things its way. I don't agree with either way but together they would be powerful. Ubuntu makes things easier for end users significantly easier fedora hasn't made things as easy.

However for me Fedora is stable and ubuntu is not. I've got a server which I tried to install ubuntu server on it and it couldn't find my video card. Fedora on the other hand found everything and its been working ever since. No major hiccups at all.

Pro's and con's with either version really some people prefer ubuntu others prefer Fedora.

[Hiltonizer]

Whether or not you or I agree it is irrelevant. I've used ubuntu but don't at the moment.

They do things their way and fedora does things its way. I don't agree with either way but together they would be powerful. Ubuntu makes things easier for end users significantly easier fedora hasn't made things as easy.

However for me Fedora is stable and ubuntu is not. I've got a server which I tried to install ubuntu server on it and it couldn't find my video card. Fedora on the other hand found everything and its been working ever since. No major hiccups at all.

Pro's and con's with either version really some people prefer ubuntu others prefer Fedora.

I do not mean to disagree with you in anyway strikeforce. And please do not mistake my compliments of Ubuntu/Canonical as me stating Ubuntu is a superior product. I'm a Fedora man all the way. You wont find me posting this on the Ubuntu forums. Go Fedora!

In any event, to stress my point further, let's take a look at history. If we ignore history, we are doomed to repeat it: Microsoft established itself as an end user operating system. Novell, as a server operating system. Who won that battle? Being a great server company does not translate into long-term success. Look at Solaris.

[Thetargos]

I've toyed with the idea of an "open console", while in theory it may look good, in practice you require a lot (and I mean a LOT) of resources. And I'm not talking about money alone. You have to gather momentum.

Gentoo tried to do that a few years back, they had this "games" program where they would make a bootable CD/DVD with a slim installation of Gentoo on it, the boot process was so that it would detect your processor and load the best kernel (and drivers) for it, had a relatively fast boot process and then you were taken into a sort of lancher screen from which you could configure some settings and then launch the game. I used to have the American Army's GentooGame LiveCD, the idea was to turn your PC into a console rig. The project in the end died, maybe because no one cared for it, or maybe because it was too much of a hassle to put things together and sort things out (for instance, figure out how to solve the settings, games and other data that should be kept).

Since my Gentoo days I have been toying around with the idea of building a gaming distribution, but this poses too many problems, and let us face it, there's still controversy in regards of using closed source drivers (modules) in the kernel, in the userspace (AKA X11) is just fine, but the kernel is quite a piece of global engineering that it would be best to only sport open drivers. If only ATi (sorry, AMD) and nVIDIA would open just that part of their drivers and then implement the rest in userspace... leading to the intergration of their kernel-side drivers into the mainline kernel, that would benefit us all. But that aint gonna happen any time soon (unless, as rumored AMD does the same as Intel did). These companies say their drivers contain trade secrets, and let us not forget that the X side could never be opened as they both implement technology from third parties. However from what I gather, they could hand the X driver to a group of developers under an NDA and have them develop an Open driver (like it was the case for the R100/200 driver) which would leave out some functions, but still could be open. Fully functional and open drivers for something as critical as the video drivers, in an industry that's ferocious, is not likely to happenm, there are some kernel developers that disagree and are convinced that they could, so much knowldegable people cannot agree on this, much can I come with a [i]panacea[i].

So hardware is the first problem, then there's the software: You have to get the interest of the developers. You can, as you just said, do it by marketing and advertisement, though you could do that by lobbing too. How? do you ask... At every major PC Gaming event, though you have a handicap: Your targetted hardware is not the latest and greatest there is, so you're less likely to get devs attention... Well it is possible, just look at what Sony did for the PS2, which has rather rudimetary hardware by today's standards, and still they came up with some rather nice games, albeit a bit limited on the special effects department, the problem is how to get such attention, you need talent and the promise of many many copies of the games to be sold. As you said, here the userbase is key, Sony can convince the amount of devs they do, simply because they've got millions of users backing them up, and got these millions of users because they had some pretty good games to boot their product with, but how did they get these games to boot? How can you convince a developer to make an AAA title for your system, more specifically, for the launch of your system? And here the answer is either moeney or again the promise of a minimum user-base, which you get with: tada! Advertisement and marketing, for which Sony had deep pockets, and so did Microsoft.

So basically the problem is not the fact to acknowledge you need to pour some money into it, but to get the money to pour into it in the first place... A vicious cycle. And there aren't many venture capitalists/investors willing to make such a risky investment... How much do you think all the Linux users interested in gaming could pour into a common pool of money? Like making donations for this "Linux Gaming Project"? How much would it cost in R&D to develop a Linux Gaming System (not like a console, but more like a very specialized Linux distro for somewhat "generic" hardware), will the Linux Gaming Community be enough to raise that amount of money? Will the project be enough to have a big player (like Epic or Id) to have an "exclussive" and use their muscle in the Industry to push and market your system too? Since this is only a software project (like the firmware for the "Linux Gaming PC"), it would be up to the interested users to come by with the hardware, and as such the system can have some hefty "minimum system requirements". What's more, since this is Linux many users will expect this to be freely available, but will they "donate" back to the project?

As you can see, there are WAY too many if's up there... theoretically, no one's stopping us, the community to do that, but ourselves, right? Are we up to the challenge? ;)

[cooney]

ubuntu?

Where's the beef?

I mean, Where's the root?

or did they fix that?

brown, yuck!!!

ok. so i like fedex, though Dale Jarrett is kind of cool!

nevermind...

[Hiltonizer]

Thetargos, that is some awesome information. I never knew the Gentoo guys made a run at it.

But you seem to have missed my point, although you proved it. Getting something like this off the ground would take a lot of resources. And no venture capitalists are going to gamble on that. However, RedHat/Novell are companies that do have the resources, and it benefits them directly on more fields than just revenue from the game/console sales. In my opinion, its imperative to their survival.

Standards and goals need to be set, and then worked towards. While the opensource community is amazing and capable of anything, but its going in too many different directions and therefore not really gaining any ground in this area. A corporate entity needs to step in and set an example.

[strikeforce]

Its slowly happening. A lot of routers have linux software on them. Some dvd players have linux software on them.

It'll happen. I personally woudn't buy a console because I don't have my friends involved in the game. Hence I play World of Warcraft.

There are a significant amount of games getting made for linux as time goes on. A good website as a reference for games is http://gaming.gwos.org/ while its based for ubuntu because its linux you will be able to install it on fedora.

Regarding people disagreeing with me I'm used to it :) Also one of my biggest gripes with fedora is that we don't have the support and knowledge base around fedora. I say this because you look at what ubuntu has in regards to support and knowledge and fedora doesn't have them. Yes its oss and I'm trying to rectify it as much as I can but I'm only one person.

I'm trying to create a gentoo like wiki atm where I can consolidate all the information from around the place. I feel something like this is important. I'm not linked to redhat so explaining the mp3 and the w32codecs won't be an issue. However, I want to get games working in fedora as well so that people can see how I've done it.

I don't expect to have anything decent up for a long while but I'm doing it in bits and pieces and hopefully it'll be of help when its semi-finished.

[mcds99]

Not to be a jerk but...

(“What’s stopping you, other than you? Nothing.”)
Then
("The whole idea is to open Linux to everyone. Linux companies, quit sitting on your hands hoping that the last piece of the puzzle finds its own way. Do something about it. There is no one stopping you but you.")

So what's stopping you?

[Nefarious]

5 million dollars and the ear of every major hardware company out there?

[Melio]

I dont' want games on linux - I want linux on shelves at stores so people who feel linux isnt powerful enough to be sold - can stfu and pay for it. then once they feel like they wanna download it and burn it. then they can stfu and do that too.

THEN - we can get games on the desktop.

[hephasteus]

While your opinion is quite valid. You have to convince the people at RedHat that it truly is the key.

Follow this thread if you please.

https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-marketing-list/2006-April/msg00112.html

There's another post in the marketing list somewhere that says that they believe that if business start using linux then the cosumers will start using linux.

In other words your comments about end users starting with linux then filtering into business is the opposite of their thought pattern. I'll try and find it and edit my post but as of yet I haven't been able to.

Unfortunately its a sociology issue. Humans will always adapt to the best idea or a single system if it weren't for rebellion. Windows will dominate and continue to dominate but be subjected to rebellion factors. Linux will simply sit out here and rebel for as long as it takes until "faith" in Microsoft falls into a pit. Our faith in Microsoft is unfounded everyone here knows that. They keep selling us the same operating system over and over. Windows 3.11 was a shell for DOS where they sold us 2 operating systems. Windows 95 was a better shell for DOS. Windows 98 was a further upgrade of windows 95. It keeps going on and on.

OS/2 was a better operating system once it got taken over by IBM. But they had to continue to pay Microsoft for "developing" it. Though microsoft didn't really give it a good try and undermined it from the beginning. As long as people believe that we require ONE dominant operating system for social security that will be the case. OS/2 tried to wrestle with Microsoft and all it took for them to win was for IBM to give up. But at this point Linux will never die. It's too good, too capable. The system of free software and tons of source code makes it too easy to keep chipping away at everyone. But the formula of faith still applies. All Red Hat has to do is continue building its faith foundations with everyone and wait for Microsoft to get a faith re-alignment. In other words our faith in microsofts ability to take care of its consumer needs is out of line and once corrected microsoft will be dealt with in a realistic fashion. In the mean time Micorosft will keep going as it has forever worrying about its own needs and taking as much as it can.

Genuine Validation will assist these forces greatly. As fast as Red Hat is moving and as much trouble as it is to keep up it's nothing compared to the prospects of people realizing that Microsoft putting in code to take your computer away from you will cause. I got so much spyware on my computer that I had to install XP professinal SEVERAL times to get rid of it all which burned up all my activation keys. Now my system freaks out refuses to boot and makes me call microsoft ever couple months. I won't tolerate that. They won't reset the key and I will never "RELY" on Microsoft again. I've bought DOS 3.0, Dos 5.11, Dos 6.12, Windows 3.11, Windows 95, Windows 98, Windows XP. I've given them about a 1000 dollars over the years and I wont go out and buy another 150 dollar copy of XP professional just so I don't have to deal with a computer that won't boot cause I decided to change a setting in my BIOS or throw in a different video card, and now windows thinks I'm installing my software on ANOTHER computer.

You want things to change in the OS world. Just wait for VISTA to come out, wait for Core 7 of Fedora to come out and wait for the faith re-allignments to hit our collective conciousnesses. Microsoft will undermine itself with its neediness and fear. The computer industry is grown up and the people running around continuing the illusion of easy increases in processing power, needs for more of this or more of that will get things thier way for a while but it will end.

The point is though the need for rebellion is real, it's valid, and it's present in the computer industry. It doesn't matter what keeps people away from Linux. What matters is how Linux prepares and handles the necessary faith realingnments. The people who are technically able to handle Linux just have to pave the way as groups of various technical proficiency jump. All i know is that if I hook up my Windows hard drive again I'll be going back to a computer that uses half a freaking GIG of ram just to be able to browse SAFE areas of the internet without getting spyware crammed up every orfice of my computer.

[strikeforce]

I have absolutely no disagreements but the one different between fedora and ubuntu is ubuntu caters to the basic needs of people. As in the people who are not experienced in linux and fedora caters to the people that have some experience.

There are a lot of things in the 'overall' fedora picture that I'm trying to contribute to however one of the biggest questions is HOW DO I DO 'X' and that is what I'm spending most of my time to do. I will never be able to change fedora's direction and concentration while it is not a real 'community' project.

However at this point in time fedora to me is the most stable and consistent OS out there. I just hope the people at redhat understand that home computers is one aspect of what they are catering for and not just business.

[neighborlee]

Whether or not you or I agree it is irrelevant. I've used ubuntu but don't at the moment.

They do things their way and fedora does things its way. I don't agree with either way but together they would be powerful. Ubuntu makes things easier for end users significantly easier fedora hasn't made things as easy.

However for me Fedora is stable and ubuntu is not. I've got a server which I tried to install ubuntu server on it and it couldn't find my video card. Fedora on the other hand found everything and its been working ever since. No major hiccups at all.

Pro's and con's with either version really some people prefer ubuntu others prefer Fedora.

together you said it,- I was just saying that to someone in IRC a moment ago ;)..great minds ....

Ubuntu has this new feature whereby when apps crash they send info to devs whether or not the app is -debug'd ;). ( windows does this and its not hurt windows a bit ) ..fedora has this kewl SElinux new feauture for OS breach alerts I think it is and other kewl features not to mention I LOVE the dna theme completely......I agree why not merge the two forces and become stronger for it, similarly as other business are doing now ;)....merge all those great minds into one nonstoppable force and give M$ something to grapple with, and linux users who admire OSS a opportunity to use the absolute BEST that OSS has to offer the masses ;) ( There must be a business model that would support this merging ideology hmmmm ) .

cheers
neighborlee()

[neighborlee]

Whether or not you or I agree it is irrelevant. I've used ubuntu but don't at the moment.

They do things their way and fedora does things its way. I don't agree with either way but together they would be powerful. Ubuntu makes things easier for end users significantly easier fedora hasn't made things as easy.

However for me Fedora is stable and ubuntu is not. I've got a server which I tried to install ubuntu server on it and it couldn't find my video card. Fedora on the other hand found everything and its been working ever since. No major hiccups at all.

Pro's and con's with either version really some people prefer ubuntu others prefer Fedora.

together you said it,- I was just saying that to someone in IRC a moment ago ;)..I can see all current major distros helping each other and making linux ROCK ( freespire/cnr, ubuntu, fedora and suse ).

Ubuntu has this new feature whereby when apps crash they send info in whether or not the app is -debug'd [ https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Apport ] ..

Fedora has this kewl SElinux new feauture called SEAlert, not to mention I LOVE the dna theme completely

*spire has of course CNR which is the best thing since sliced bread for app install/removal etal ( including intersting aisles ),,and other interesting things that make IMO, its default kde the best professional looking desktop out there, even if I prefer gnome for OSS reasons, but hey gnome can do that too if we want it to.

......I agree why not merge the two forces and become stronger for it, similarly as other business are doing now in effort to remain valid in ever increasing market of competition....merge all those great resources into one nonstoppable force and give others something to grapple with , - and linux users worldwide who admire what it stands for, a opportunity to use the absolute BEST that OSS has to offer us all ; )

cheers
neighborlee()

[jstoddard]

I dont' want games on linux - I want linux on shelves at stores so people who feel linux isnt powerful enough to be sold - can stfu and pay for it. then once they feel like they wanna download it and burn it. then they can stfu and do that too.

THEN - we can get games on the desktop.

I want Linux on shelves at stores, but I don't give a rat's rootie patootie about people who feel Linux isn't powerful enough to be sold.

I want Linux on shelves at stores simply because I'm lazy and impatient, and it's quicker and easier to buy a DVD or a set of CD's than to download and burn them.

Luckily, here in San Diego we have a nice big store called Fry's Electronics that sells Linux, FreeBSD, etc. in its software section. Unfortunately, it doesn't carry Fedora -- they don't package stuff on their own; some vendor who mass produces Fedora CD's would have to come along and sell them on it...

[Melio]

I bought a book once called fedora core 4 unleashed and it came with a DVD of FC4 so, you could always buy fedora that way.

[Melio]

http://www.amazon.com/Fedora-Core-Unleashed-Paul-Hudson/dp/0672329298

[jstoddard]

Clever idea... I've seen those books at local bookstores, but it never crossed my mind that it'd be an easy way to purchase a copy of Fedora (or any other Linux distro for that matter). And I enjoy having computer books around. I guess I can be pretty slow to connect the dots from time to time...

[Thetargos]

I bought a book once called fedora core 4 unleashed and it came with a DVD of FC4 so, you could always buy fedora that way.
Is the money going back to the Fedora project or is that money going to the editorial, author and the rest of the chain, but the distro is actually bundled without giving anything back to the distro?... Anyway, I own the book and it IS awesome.

[strikeforce]

I believe the author of that actually works on fedora. He works in the doc's project???? I may be wrong but I read it somewhere.

[Thetargos]

That he might work on Fedora is not the same as working for Fedora... In any case, it is a good thing that he might work on Fedora, as I'm sure he does and he must get a LOT of stuff from the guys working on the docs project too.

[strikeforce]

I know very few people who work FOR fedora since its mostly volunteer work. I think the only people who work for fedora are the ones that work for redhat. Even then I believe most of them help with fedora on their spare time.

Its also one of those jobs thats 24/7 since its a community project which would be an interesting and thankless life :)