Games for Cedega

[Legomax]

what if in an alternate universe, publishers made games for Cedega, instead of Cedega cahnging to meet games. instead of seeing Optimized for Stupid on the back of Fable the lost chapters, you see optimized for Cedega/Wine. imagine how many years this is from being true. 12? 13?

[urmom9388]

Or even better yet, they made them for wine... so it was free :P

[Thetargos]

It could be a good idea, seeing how other efforts have turned out, to include a stand-alone version of wine specially tailored for an application, the last example of this: Picasa, which uses a specially crafted version of Wine to do its job. It actually is not a bad idea, not at all... However I seriously would think that supporting a more cross platform library which would not induce a performance hit, like SDL, is really the way to go.

Currently, trying to support DirectX APIs through wrapper code incurs in a nasty performance hit. The Win32 API is alredy pretty well implemented, but DirectX is a whole other issue, as it is a whole other API. The 3D "lingua franca" for Linux is still OpenGL, and unless DirectX could be fully ported over (which will never happen), the best is to use that for games rather than DirectX. Even Vista is getting proper OpenGL support, so OpenGL as opposed of what was thought, is not going anywhere... It is crossplatform, generally easier to code for than DirectX, and is the graphics backend of SDL.

However for the time being, it would be aweseome if game developers and Transgaming would be willing to cooperate and either release games with a specially customized version which will install and be operational much in the like of Point2Play with earlier versions of WineX, or work together to ensure compatiblity from the get go...

Anyway you look at this, is a complex issue, and us gamers and Linux users are cought in the cross fire.

[Legomax]

Currently, trying to support DirectX APIs through wrapper code incurs in a nasty performance hit.

directx is only for windows. and if windows is doomed, directx is doomed. something will have to fill the gap when windows's market share of the pc gaming world gets smaller. maybe something for linux? Lin -X 10b

[Thetargos]

I think that (if enough support gets through) SDL has the potential of becoming the "Linux DirectX" (I don't like that name, personally, but from lack of a better description, that suits it just fine).

[Legomax]

why not LinX i like the sound of that better

[Thetargos]

I have no problems with SDL, though...

One thing is clear, though:

Game developers have to start realizing Linux is a viable platform for their games. And here I believe that Transgaming can be our major ally, in terms of exposing more and more Linux users to high quality games, and game producers to Linux. Still, in the best interest of the Linux users, game developers should start making native versions of their games instead of relying on Cedega, and maybe Transgaming become that which Loki games ceased to be back in 2001.

[Legomax]

One thing is clear, though:
Yes, LinX sounds good.

[Legomax]

whats Loki games?

[Thetargos]

Loki games was a company that in the late 90's early 2000 aimed at porting commercial Windows games to Linux, they ported a number of games like:

Unreal Tournament classic.
DeusEx (the port was not finished, as something happened with Ion Storm)
Heavy Metal 2000 FAKK2
Rune
Many other games.

You can still check the site out, even though the company is non-existant anymore, though some games are still sold from Tuxgames and other retailers. Check www.lokigames.com

[Legomax]

right place, wrong time. why doesnt cedega do that? they were able to make cider, which basically cuts out a ton of time in porting windows games to Mac (and linux boxes using Cedega, not native). im guessing their reasoning is that if they make a game native, how will they make their money over the longterm? Transgaming just seems to be a greedy pig, ready to make as much money as possible. why just make some money from selling a linux version of a game, when you can sell a mac version whcich works on linux with a monthly pay based system?

[Thetargos]

Well, they could use all their intrinsic DirectX knowledge (which is a LOT) to port games over to Linux, and in that way, become developers and possibly publishers, and still provide a platform to play those games which can't be ported.

But there is another issue to consider: Game developers usually don't have much of a saying as to what system to develop their games for. It is much like it happens with the music industry. The artists have to play the music the labels want them to paly, because that's what's gonna sell. Same thing with Linux and Windows games. A developer can have the Ulitmate Linux game up their sleeves, but no publisher willing to sell their product. Sure there already is one fine publisher (LGP, Linux Game Publishing (www.linuxgamepublishing.com/)), but still we are missing devs. Transgaming could fill in that gap, easily. Still the Publisher/developer relationship being much as a label/artist one, can be a potential showstopper, as you know of the draconian clauses these types of contracts usually contain. So who knows if terminating a contract with Activision (to mention one) could even bring to bankrupcy a game studio.

[KClaisse]

What doesn't make sence to me is games like Warcraft 3 were made to run on Mac. Mac has a UNIX structure, so why doesn't Warcraft 3 work? Would it be all that hard to make games run on OpenGL as opposed to DirectX? I can understand it's easier to port games to platforms but what about PC only games? Why not make a game for all. I say, DOWN WITH DIRECTX.

Also, my name for linux directx is DirectL. !PATENT PENDING!

[hollywoodb]

I don't see the point in optimizing a game to be compatible with a subscription service (Cedega). If making a game linux-native is out of the question, I'd much rather see game developers work with the WINE project to achive better performance and compatibility.

Cedega constantly changes to make the latest and games (most highly voted) work, which often breaks compatibility with older games (not highly voted) that used to work. WINE aims to produce true compatibility, and as the project progressess I believe that Cedega's somewhat fractured codebase won't be able to reach the level of compatibility that WINE will achive.

[KClaisse]

Screw developers, I'd like some direct implementation of DirectX! I do not understand the process of porting an API or just rewriting code for that matter, but I do understand that if you build, they will come. I don't see DX support anytime soon, but I do see it. I only hope that more developers will take a sidestep to OpenGL and not use DX. If Ubisoft released their games in OpenGL format, that means that all OS's could, potentially, use it. Thats tripple the potential sales. Appeal to all audiences. Doesn't that sound like a good marketing point?

I want one person here to name one Drawback on releasing an OpenGL, Computer Only (Mac, XP, Linux, etc.) game? Quake 4 did it, and Quake 4 was a fantastic, and fast game! All computers could play it. Made with OpenGL. Why not more games? What do devs have to lose? That I ask you! </rant>

[Thetargos]

What doesn't make sence to me is games like Warcraft 3 were made to run on Mac. Mac has a UNIX structure, so why doesn't Warcraft 3 work? Would it be all that hard to make games run on OpenGL as opposed to DirectX? I can understand it's easier to port games to platforms but what about PC only games? Why not make a game for all. I say, DOWN WITH DIRECTX.
Well, to make Warcraft III work natively on Linux x86 in OpenGL would mean a bit (a lot?) more than a recompile, as the game was built using OSX's capabilities and intrisic APIs. True at least the renderer and much of the engine should not be much of a problem, there are other problems to consider...

I want one person here to name one Drawback on releasing an OpenGL, Computer Only (Mac, XP, Linux, etc.) game? Quake 4 did it, and Quake 4 was a fantastic, and fast game! All computers could play it. Made with OpenGL. Why not more games? What do devs have to lose? That I ask you!
Actually there are may be some. Either you as coder use and stick to the old true and tried OpenGL+GLUT application develpment, where GLUT would take care of windowing and basic input, or use something which would expose more of the system's capabilities (in Windows this is done through DirectX, DirectDraw and DirectInput). This drawback however is not true nowadays, especially with the advent of SDL, which, simply put, takes care of the particular system's communication (windowing, input, sound, etc) and exposes a unified API to developers. Much of what DirectX actually does on Windows, but cross platform. Its drawbacks? Only a handful developers use it, and they mostly use it to develop for Linux, i.e they do not take advantage of the library on Windows or MacOS, which means, SDL has become a "Linux particularity", which in turn serves to "add complexity", as parts of the code should still take care some aspects intrinsic to the systems (Win, Mac, Lin), even though SDL could "cure" this from all the systems.

By the way, I have yet to see an SDL application for Windows "in the wild" (i.e, not a techdemo).

[KClaisse]

Wow, those are some very good points. But in my sideways head, I see Epic Games do it, I think anyone could do it.

[Thetargos]

Epic does not code their Linux versions, Ryan C. Gordon (Icculus) does, and he uses SDL, yes. Actually he is one of the biggest SDL advocates out there.

[KClaisse]

I love Ryan C Gordon <3 <3

But it is just an example of how it can be done.

[Thetargos]

Yeah, he's an alright dude and even has taken the time to answer som questions on the UT2004 mailing list. I guess that SDL could be the way to go if more projects adopted it, but sine there's "no one" behind SDL (read, there's no formal corporate support and formal documentation), it's gonna take a while. It would be nice, though if someone put forward a gaming distro which would also not only sponsor SDL, but back it up and provide the assurance big name game firms require for adopting it.

[Legomax]

Lol, i think im missing some of this... Cedega is essentially destroying itself as it goes, like killing an old part to add a new one? how do they plan to keep users?

[hollywoodb]

Lol, i think im missing some of this... Cedega is essentially destroying itself as it goes, like killing an old part to add a new one? how do they plan to keep users?

By focusing on keeping the newest flashiest most highly voted games working. I have a number of games that used to work under Cedega, and not WINE..... I cancelled my Transgaming subscription when those games quit working and WINE had progressed enough that they would run under WINE. These days they run better under WINE than they ever did under Cedega. I ditched Cedega shortly after the 5.0 release.

Some reading (of course to be taken as a grain of salt, but raises interesting points)

http://transgaming.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6088
http://curmudgeongamer.com/2006/08/transgaming-forsakes-gnulinux-gamers.html

[Thetargos]

I got really disapointed with Cedega, the minute my most played game stopped working: Diablo II. It doesn't work any more. I have a "joint" installation (installed twice onto the same directory, once under Cedega, once under Wine). The Cedega installation does not work, it should even work wthout being "installed" (no registry keys), but as of 5.0.x it does not. I play this game every night with a group of friends on player hosted games over TCP/IP. Wine's a tad slower (as of 0.9.15+), but at least works.

[Gonesolo]

I got really disapointed with Cedega, the minute my most played game stopped working: Diablo II. It doesn't work any more. I have a "joint" installation (installed twice onto the same directory, once under Cedega, once under Wine). The Cedega installation does not work, it should even work wthout being "installed" (no registry keys), but as of 5.0.x it does not. I play this game every night with a group of friends on player hosted games over TCP/IP. Wine's a tad slower (as of 0.9.15+), but at least works.


Why not just use and older version of the Cedega game engine to play it? AFAIK it should work ok on 4.4.3..

I'll crack out my version of Diablo II and LOD tonight and test and let you know the results.

[Thetargos]

Because even though I could theoretically shove a "local" wine installation inside Diablo's directory, I'd rather use the globally available tool, in this case Wine. Actually there are not many games that work with Cedega (that I care for, anyway) to make me keep my subscription, I won't renew, that's for sure.

At one point Undying worked superbly, again, at some point towards the 5th release, it stopped working.

[sentry]

what if in an alternate universe, publishers made games for Cedega, instead of Cedega cahnging to meet games. instead of seeing Optimized for Stupid on the back of Fable the lost chapters, you see optimized for Cedega/Wine. imagine how many years this is from being true. 12? 13?
I think the alternate universe would be better served if devs would make games without using DirectX. Cedega/Wine are not what programmers need to program too as they're just emulation layers *ducks*.

If in this alternate universe without DirectX and sloppy windows only coding practices we wouldn't need Cedega/Wine.

[Thetargos]

Indeed, in an ideal world, DirectX would be substituted by SDL.